Thoughts on MNHQ's response to the Spartacus thread

Here in Canada, there's a high school that has dedicated 2 single person washrooms to 'gender neutral' people.

This of course means that girls will have to line up to use it because we all know that males who wear dresses will not use it. The whole point behind AGP is that he gets a thrill out of using the women's room.

Our achievements are being eradicated. We are becoming nothing... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37391807?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

She signed up as a HE. Was trained as a HE lived amongst other soldiers as a HE, proved their worth as a HE and only recently became SHE.

When the first biologically born female becomes the first to serve on the front line she will have done so by signing up as a SHE, training as a SHE, living amongst fellow soldiers as a SHE, proving her worth as a SHE and this, this achievement will not be recognised as anything other than second best :(

I missed the original thread, if anyone remembers my story then believe me, I shouting at the top of my lungs, and with every fibre of my being : I AM SPARTACUS. I AM SODDING SPARTACUS.

Presumably someone in the early stages of transition (or not intending to have surgery at all) could now walk in on me naked, strip down to reveal a penis and strut into the showers butt naked, and there would be nothing I could say to HR about it. Because I'd have become like racist auntie Gladys in their eyes Yes
WE should have a choice and this. We don't have a choice. We have been silenced.

WE should have a choice. This should all be about choice. A unisex changing room/loo should be in every building and trans people should be given the option to use the one of their biological sex or the unisex one. They shouldn't be given an automatic right to spaces esp female spaces because of the issues of male violence and safety. Hell even prison officers and prison psyches (report someone shared up thread) had concerns a large percentage of men were transitioning because they presumed female prisons were an easier ride.

They shouldn't be allowed into spaces that will ultimately push out many women - who the facilities are for ffs - where the discrimination there? What about the woman who for religious reasons covers her body in the presence of men surely she is being discriminated against - firstly for being female and secondly with religious discrimination - because the facilities have been made impossible to use when before they were.

If this was about those people who desire and have a fetishism about being disabled and getting priority access to disabled loos and facilities or taking over disabled groups there would be uproar because of the appropriation of spaces designed specifically for that minority of people and to make them unavailable or unusable would be discriminatory.

I feel like we've lost the war without even realising it had been declared. I sometime use the changing room in the gym at work. Communal changing room. Presumably someone in the early stages of transition (or not intending to have surgery at all) could now walk in on me naked, strip down to reveal a penis and strut into the showers butt naked, and there would be nothing I could say to HR about it. Because I'd have become like racist auntie Gladys in their eyes - despite over 50 years of socialisation that makes me very jumpy about being naked and vulnerable in the presence of male-bodied individuals. That doesn't count for anything. I would be the one in danger of getting the sack for being bigoted and prejudiced if I raised the issue.

They may dispute (or just not have realised and be defensive) that women may need to know - be prepared.

so for example, a woman who decides to live as a man without undergoing any medical procedures would be covered

This is about protection under the equality act from the ACAS link. Interesting that they not chosen to say 'a man who decides to live as a woman without undergoing any medical procedure would be covered' isn't it. Because he would. But it sounds far far more contentious.

Thank you for that. I shall bring it up. Sources I read seemed to indicate that telling people may be problematic. But as Errol says, all the women in the building need to know who they may encounter in the female loos.

It does include 'telling people about the situation. Make a list of people who need to know...'

People need to know if a person of the opposite sex is identifying as their gender and wanting to use their loo.

This is interesting

m.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2064

I'm guessing that requiring a transgender person to use a unisex toilet counts as direct discrimination as it's a policy treating transgender people differently than others.

When was the Wright Stuff debate on? Is it still available on catch up, or YouTube?

I don't generally watch TV during the day but a few weeks ago I watched it at a friend's and there was a very brief conversation re trans issues. Matthew Wright did seem very anti TA agenda and I was very impressed. But as I say, it was very brief and I don't think it would have been the one mentioned upthread.

Would love to see the one mentioned if available.

Don't know, maybe all the employment law and gov advisory advice is presuming it will be law and we should act accordingly. What I read wasn't advisory though, it was very much 'this is what you must do', otherwise discrimination. I'm going to see what HR say tomorrow, I wfh today and I want to discuss face to face. I expect a lily livered response. I was thinking earlier, what if women weren't just in a stall having a pee and didn't know a bloke was in there, what if they went in to change their tights or something? I wouldn't bother to go in a stall for something like that if it was a single sex space. So someone's in there with their skirt round their waist, or their jumper pulled up having an underarm deodorant squirt, and he comes barging in unannounced. No one knew it might happen. Fucking unacceptable.

How is this possible when it isn't the law yet?

The accepted idea on the programme was that transgender women should go into women's loos

Everything I read yesterday re how to deal with this in the workplace appeared to indicate there is no choice, refusal to admit them to the female facilities is discriminatory. No acknowledgement whatsoever that women may legitimately have concerns; any such issue is assumed to be born of ignorance and prejudice.

Yvette Fielding did say she wouldn't be happy about it because of girls starting their periods early. There lots of jokey references to boys' lack of hygiene and the like. However the tone was jocular not serious.

I watched that. This is mainstream now. The accepted idea on the programme was that transgender women should go into women's loos. There is a transgender woman in the audience everyday. She said she was encouraged to go into women's loos by a group of women. Everyone sighed with approval. A caller with a 5/6 year old transgender boy was sympathised with. The child was worried about going into the boys' loos so therefore all loos should be unisex.

Damn it..I hoped DHs version was right and this might just be the start of people standing up against it. Wonder how he got the tone so wrong in this case then :S

apparently there was a discussion on a show called 'the wright stuff' about loos/changing room s and such and schools I watched that. This is mainstream now. The accepted idea on the programme was that transgender women should go into women's loos. There is a transgender woman in the audience everyday. She said she was encouraged to go into women's loos by a group of women. Everyone sighed with approval. A caller with a 5/6 year old transgender boy was sympathised with. The child was worried about going into the boys' loos so therefore all loos should be unisex.

Apparently Matthew Wright was vehemently against it all. I didn't see the show myself mind. He says the majority of phone ins were shocked and against also.

My reply to this was, I bet the show is pulled now as the ofcom complaints will be astronomical if anything except the 'acceptable' line was spoken.

Did he say what the tone of the debate was on the Wright stuff?

I think when it starts to hit home to people it's a real shock, not just 'stuff on the internet'. I think my DH was the same until I came home yesterday and told him about the bloke in the next loo standing and pissing like a racehorse. I think a lot of people, men and women don't see it as a 'real thing'.

He is also quite worried about what this will mean for his job. He often works security on doors in pubs/clubs and he is worried that removing a bloke who 'is a woman' could potentially get him into trouble.

(Missed out this part somehow)

My husband is going a bit hysterical over this matter..apparently there was a discussion on a show called 'the wright stuff' about loos/changing room s and such and schools. This appears to have woken him up on the matter as before it was quite 'yes dear' when I was ranting about it. We have just had a really long talk about it all whilst kids are at school..and basically he sees the whole trans-movement as blokes trying to get one over on women. Blokes suddenly being 'more oppressed' and such and he says over his dead body will our children be going to a school that thinks it is ok to shove a few guys into the girls changing room. With no prompting from me he came to the 'we don't treat anorexia by giving out liposcution' type view also. He says he thought I was just being OTT over some random crap on the internet but now he is just as worried as me about where this seems to be heading and made me promise that if new laws and such get passed that would mean our daughter would be subjected to having to deal with lads around her while she showers and changes and such, I will home school her. He does not have such reservations about our son as he says no girl would want to be in the boys changing room anyway (odd how we never hear arguments from transmen wanting this, only ever vice versa) and if she was, its not a threat in the same way. But if he did feel uncomfortable with it, I have to homeschool him also.

I agreed. As this batshit crazy view of anyone is whatever they say they are is not going to put my kids at risk, or even make them feel uncomfortable.

He is also quite worried about what this will mean for his job. He also came out with something I had never considered before (possibly because of his job..he does security, often in clubs). Does this mean male on female violence will be trivialized by the guy saying he is a woman in his head..and such. Yes its bad for two women to fight, but its seen as a lot more serious when its a bloke and a woman being physical.

Thanks for that :) no idea when but isn't is scary how sex and gender are being so confused.

Apologies if these articles have been posted before but I was shocked to read Maria Miller's response to feminist criticism of proposed legal changes
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/maria-miller-says-only-hostility-to-transgender-report-came-from-women-purporting-to-be-feminists-a6830406.html

This is an excellent article in response

stephaniedaviesarai.com/cwc/maria-millers-report-puts-feminists-in-an-impossible-position/

Can anyone advise as to the stage of the committee. When will a white paper be produced?

I think you need to go to hr and complain in the strongest possible terms about them putting you in a position where you might have thought there was a man in the loos. Your feelings don't matter of course as you are women but you might have made the poor transwoman uncomfortable by assuming he was a man and that would never have done.
Absolutely no point in your using the mens - like fuck will you get treated equally on this one. We have already seen that when transmen commit crimes they are reported as women.
You then need to make sure you tell HR if there are any cases of the toilets not being treated as women treat them. If there is wee on the seats demand extra cleaning.