This is bullshit thread #3

I personally don't want a GRC because I wasn't born female and my parents didn't call me Helen so I would see it as a lie

So can I ask - on your passport and driving license, have you put M or F?

If it is M, do you ever have 'issues' with authority?

Whether women and TW can come together on this remains to be seen, as at the moment a lot of MTT discourse seems to build on and further entrench gender roles and stereotyping that many women utterly reject.

Yes. I don't think that women and most TW will stand together in the near future, but I think that it's important for those of us who at least try to understand and share views on gender to stand with women.

Toxic masculinity and how we raise boys in society is what needs to change

I agree with that. I think that society does judge boys who are 'different' and imposes strict rules on them - especially with how they present to the world.

I do think that the dysphoria associated with some trans people and the efffectiveness and relief that HRT and surgery brings to how the body looks and feels is different though and cannot be ignored.

I do think that something biological is going on there - whether it's how the chromosomal expression is affected by hormones in the womb, during development, epigenetics - because chromosomes are more than X and Y etc.

I think that does not have to mean 'lady brain'. It just might well mean that something has happened that means the XY expression has been affected and that's caused an effect somewhere in the brain to make a trans person see that their body is 'wrong'. I know some people will dismiss that - but as someone said upthread, the brain is incredibly complex and there are many things we don't know about it. Gene expression is incredibly complex, Hormones are complex. Epigenetics is a new science.

The feeling of body dysphoria cannot be ignored , its causes are very unclear and the feeling of relief that is felt as the body becomes more what 'it should be' should not be under estimated. To call it 'mutilation' is to dismiss what is a life changing operation

Sporadicus

Yes that's right. The GRC and new birth certificate came about as a necessary means of protection. It was indeed so that somebody didn't need to out themselves and open themselves up to discrimination.

However, for many that history has been lost and I know mant TW that see it as endorsement that they have always been women. Now it's all about validation.

I personally don't want a GRC because I wasn't born female and my parents didn't call me Helen so I would see it as a lie.

I can see a parallel here with another time a birth certificate can be revised - if you marry after having children. In this situation you're supposed to re-register the children so their birth certificate shows them as "children of the marriage". This must be because of the shame attached to being 'illegitimate'

Is this why I was told I HAD to re-register their birth certificates when I married my partner..I did wonder about that and found it a bit weird but noone could explain to me why I would need to do this.

Thanks Lumpy, it's such a mess. The proposed changes will make a MTT legally no different from a woman but materially no different from a man.

I agree with that Sporadicus, society is twisting itself up to protect a group from male violence or the shame of being caught out instead of just embracing the fact that we're all different. Toxic masculinity and how we raise boys in society is what needs to change.

This is the most reasonable, polite and respectful discussion I have ever seen on these issues, anywhere. This is why being able to have this discussion on mumsnet rather than on a forum where dissenting views aren't welcome is so so important.

I have some thoughts on the GRC.

The way I interpret it, a gender recognition certificate doesn't change your birth certificate as an acknowledgment that you have always been a member of the opposite sex. It changes to avoid being outed, because there is a risk of violence but also because the government sees that there is shame attached to being trans.

I can see a parallel here with another time a birth certificate can be revised - if you marry after having children. In this situation you're supposed to re-register the children so their birth certificate shows them as "children of the marriage". This must be because of the shame attached to being 'illegitimate'

This shame no longer exists, afaic. We have progressed as a society past judging people for having dc out of wedlock. So who's to say the same can't be done for trans people?

I know this doesn't really solve any immediate problems, the parallel just struck me today.

This is true according to the organising principles by which humans have chosen to interpret biological observations. Historically, this organising principle had the aim of differentiating between men and women in order to control women's sexuality and fertility.

Adjustable, this isn't true. People didn't eeny meeny miney mo and decide that some people are female and some people aren't. We are a sexually dimorphic species, females are persecuted because of their biology not because of an ancient organising principle.

But some things affect both of us. Specifically gender and aspects of male violence. Surely it makes sense to stand together on those?

I think we can agree on male violence being a problem, although how it is experienced & the differing socialisation of male vs female children means we are likely to have different perspectives on whether a specific behaviour or issue is a problem or not. The whole issue of gender seems entirely vexed & rejected or accepted to differing degrees. Whether women and TW can come together on this remains to be seen, as at the moment a lot of MTT discourse seems to build on and further entrench gender roles and stereotyping that many women utterly reject.

I do appreciate the measured discussion on this thread & don't want to derail. It is also excellent to have such measured and thought-provoking contributions from trans posters.

Marking place.

marking my place so I can catch up and keep this on my TIO list.

How helpful is that, though, JAP? I can identify as a 20-year-old black man. I can go around with a swaggering walk, get an intense suntan and wear a wig. I'll still be a 60-year-old white woman.

The only effect it'll have on other people is that some folks might be fooled, and might treat me differently (probably adversely) because of my identity. Young black men will not be fooled. If I end up feeling resentful about the prejudice I've encountered and sad about my non-inclusion by young black men, who's responsible?

Jed I don't think we need to stand together on everything. A lot of things that affect wome don't affect us. A lot of things that affect us don't affect women.

But some things affect both of us. Specifically gender and aspects of male violence. Surely it makes sense to stand together on those? Particularly as part of what we are standing up against purports to represent the trans community.

Saying "I identify as a woman" is not ok because no biological woman chose this. We just are, its not something we can identify into or out of.

To me "identifying as X" just means you consider yourself to be X. It doesn't have to relate to things you choose or can opt out of. People can use that expression to refer to the sexuality they consider themselves to be, for instance.

And how other people treat you due to what goes on their own heads and the groupings they place you into, is also separate from the groups you identify as (consider yourself to actually belong to).

A homophobe might erroneously ID some guy as a homosexual for whatever reason (maybe he is very effeminate) then insult or harass him or worse. That guy is still a heterosexual, and can identify as such. Different issues.

Transwomen can be feminists. Some of the TW on the last thread are :) Men can be feminists, too.

It goes without saying that no feminist can ignore or misinterpret female biology. No feminist can deny that women are oppressed because of their biology.

There are ways in which feminist issues impact on men, too, regardless of their gender choices. Feminist men understand this. Some feminist issues affect transwomen specifically. I don't see why we couldn't stand together on those, while appreciating we also have different issues.

-It would be desirable to stand together against gender stereotypes and male violence

Is it desirable that we stand together though? Women have a host of issues related to fertility, childbirth, bodily autonomy, access to safe contraception and abortion which MTT (as born males) do not share or - in case of TRA - any willingness to show empathy or care towards. The level of erasure and silencing of women's biological needs & bodily autonomy is breathtaking. I personally think we have passed the point where we can stand shoulder to shoulder. Women and MTT both have problems arising from male violence, but our struggles are different and the most vocal trans have shown they are not trustworthy bedfellows. We can agree you have some similar issues, but we also have concerns of our own that we should not take our eye off - hard won and progress that was costly to the generations before us.

On safe spaces - This often makes me think of a therapist I saw for two years. He's highly qualified, with an excellent reputation. There was a whole bunch of stuff he just didn't "get". Many of my expensive sessions were taken up with me educating him about issues specific to women - not myself in particular, but all women. Everything from periods and miscarriages to subtle marginalisation at work and random sexual aggression. He was visibly uncomfortable with much of this, which must be why none of his previous female clients had gone into miserable detail for him.

Since then I asked for female therapists. I should have been able to discuss my individual responses to these issues, rather than explaining why their occurrence isn't my responsibility.

Lacking the whole shared history of women - and understanding of female-specific issues - renders a person unsuitable for certain roles with women. I'd say "rape counsellor" is the most striking example here, but there are plenty of others. If we then suppose the so-called woman counselling the rape victim has a penis, it should be obvious why that person shouldn't be anywhere near a rape victim. Unless we resist calling that counsellor a woman, rape victims are robbed of a crucial choice in their aftercare.

Saying "I feel like I should be a woman" is ok with me. I don't understand what "feeling like a woman" means but I can reasonably see that you can feel like that.
Saying "I identify as a woman" is not ok because no biological woman chose this. We just are, its not something we can identify into or out of.

Still catching up, but this really summed up a large part of the problem for me. "Identifying out of" being a woman is something I do a lot of the time anyway - nearly all women do. It doesn't change the vast history of abuse, exploitation, marginalisation and objectification I've experienced because of being a human female. When I'm being "not feminine" I still have to work harder for respect. I still have to keep an eye open for sex-based threats to my safety. This is all because the cells in my body are XX, not what I'm wearing or the way I walk.

Whilst I agree that MTT are (despite how hurtful it is for many to accept) a subset of men, I can't see how we get there.

We get there by refusing to call MTTs women or female and by raising consciousness of this issue among women. MTTs who are allies of women can speak out as you and Miranda do.

helen and ego - if you're both still about - it's really interesting to hear you talk about this stuff and I hope you are both not too exhausted! What a shame we have come to this situation due to some overzealous individuals, whereby your very existence requires a Q&A session... I do think this dialogue is so important though, listening to each other is the only thing that will help us find a mutually beneficial solution to this whole mess.

I wanted to ask specifically about the negative connotations you both experience with the term "man" - now, although I have suffered a great deal of harassment and abuse at the hands of men, I still don't recoil in the same way at the concept of a male person. Perhaps it's because I come from a family of exceptionally kind and gentle men, on both sides. So because in early life I had really amazing examples of how men could be, I haven't subsequently developed an aversion to the idea of maleness, despite a multitude of negative experiences with men. I was wondering if your early experiences with men were different (no need to share any information if you feel this is too personal, btw) and also if you have tried any forms of therapy to help overcome these negative feelings about men, such as CBT.

We're not sexuality dimorphic because someone classified us that way, but because there are two distinct reproductive body types. As was said earlier about this, monkeys might not know if they're called man or woman but they know which one pushes out the baby monkeys!