This is bullshit thread #3

It would be possible to draw some conclusions if there were some consistencies between the experiences of MTTs such as growing up in conservative background or in an environment imbued with toxic masculinity, especially if one's parents are not supportive of being gender non-conforming, especially for homosexuals. Sadly this is a very common background for MTTs, especially the young gay boys being transitioned now.

The term is misleading

I agree. I am not sure when transsexual became transgender. Or is transsexual part of transgender? I get confused sometimes about what people tell me I am supposed to be.

Ego147
My issues had nothing to do with gender.

I don't think the inclusion of the word gender is helpful in terms such as 'transgender', 'gender dysphoria' etc - some people clearly believe that those who are transgender are somehow choosing/reinforcing gender roles and stereotypes. In some people's eyes, gender being a social construct undermines the validity of being transgender. The term is misleading.

don't you think the way you experienced gender in your upbringing has anything to do with where you've ended up

Who knows? If I had had a different experience, would I be here now? I think that's an impossible question - it's nature vs nurture and I honestly don't know.

This feels like the most constructive trans thread we've ever had.

It also feels like the discussion that society should be having. Maybe then it would get somewhere.

ego don't you think the way you experienced gender in your upbringing has anything to do with where you've ended up?

I mean, you reacted very, very strongly against posters calling prominent TAs men - that suggests to me that "man" is an insult to you, and surely that is at least partly because you reject the norms associated with being a man? I'm happy to be corrected. I want to understand, not to tell you what you are.

My apologies. I am trying to read all of the thread but I confess I may not be taking everything in, because I am trying to keep up in time to ask questions!. I did read Helen's bit about having very negative feelings towards the idea of being a man and maleness, and I thought I read something similar from you too (I might be wrong) so it would follow that these negative feelings come somewhat from gender, as there are a lot of lovely men out there, so it's more to do with what men represent than what individual men actually are. I just really want to understand where the roots of dysphoria lie, I suspect they are many and varied, but there must be some science to it.

I'm confused though, if your issues did not stem from gender, then what do you think was the root cause

I think I posted that before - with a 'I've no idea'. at 17:44

I have also - as has helen tried to explain the feelings on thread number 2

ego I'm confused though, if your issues did not stem from gender, then what do you think was the root cause? Can you pinpoint anything in your past that may have contributed to your feelings, or did they just come out of the blue?

I was using lazy shorthand by calling it gender discomfort

Thanks

The NHS doesn't help - the clinics are called gender identity clinics which seems at odds with a society that wants to get rid of gender roles.

Helen yes totally, it's been forgotten and obscured, like most aspects of this subject, it's become about validation rather than what the safest solutions are for everybody.

Ego I agree it's unhelpful to talk about perfect world scenarios. Everyone deserves safety and dignity right now, not in some future utopia. I also think it's a bad idea to work in the opposite direction from these ideal solutions, which is how the TRAs are steering the discussion.

Ego, I was using lazy shorthand by calling it gender discomfort. I apologise. To me, it is gender discomfort because that's what my years of self-analysis have taught me about my anorexia and all the things my brother & I did to escape our impending roles of adult doom. But body dysphoria's a perfectly good term, too.

I completely agree that we have to do some social fitting-in. What people do to achieve it (or get closer to it, anyway) depends heavily on the individual and their own social context - their identity.

There's no problem with this until someone starts demanding that other folks change or relinquish their identities or their bodies. Which is the problem I have with TW activism and its current achievements.

That ain't happening any time soon, though, and it makes me nervous when people assume the best response to gender discomfort is to alter the body

My issues had nothing to do with gender. It might do for others but as far as I am aware, gender implies 'women do this, behave that way, men do this, men behave that way'. That is not what my issues were.

MephistoMarley wrote - "TW with bottom surgery etc are definitely closer to being women than men but that doesn't mean they are women."

Although I know that you qualified your statement with "but that doesn't mean they are women", the first part of your sentence about "definitely closer to being women" seemed to me to imply that you may believe in the existence of some kind of man-woman spectrum which transwomen can move along by altering their bodies. This raises a few questions in my mind:

Why do you believe that bottom surgery etc. makes a transwoman definitely closer to being a woman?

Do you also believe that a mastectomy and hysterectomy etc. makes a transman definitely closer to being a man although still not a man?

If a non-trans man is castrated is he definitely closer to being a woman?

If a non-trans woman has a hysterectomy or a mastectomy or is a victim of FGM is she also definitely closer to being a man?

It's always important to understand things in the context of the current real world and not some imagined world

Sometimes I think that's forgotten - and then trans people face a lot of hassle for what we have to do to survive in the real world and to try to fit in in a world that does not 'get us'.

The feeling of body dysphoria cannot be ignored , its causes are very unclear

One problem with this is that - as often described in FWR - a high proportion of girls develop body dysphoria during puberty. I did: I took up cutting and became anorexic, which I now see as a (partially successful) attempt to not become a woman. It's not unusual for boys, either - becoming a man's a fairly heavy burden. My brother decided to be gay for 4 years.

I can't tell you how what I experienced, or my brother, compares to the dysphoria felt by trans people. Neither can you. All we have are subjective descriptions - and symptoms, which are mostly the same.

So we still don't even know what it is, let alone what to do about it. I wish we'd start by ignoring gender. That ain't happening any time soon, though, and it makes me nervous when people assume the best response to gender discomfort is to alter the body.

That's not to say that we just accept the status quo and don't push for change. But we have to do we need to do to survive the journey.

Exactly Ego.

It's always important to understand things in the context of the current real world and not some imagined world.

Society fimds it easier to accept a "trans woman" than a man who presents in a way that is percieved to be as a woman

And society isn't going to change soon. People do what they do to fit in and survive.

Disney is the worst for this!!!!!

Too many boys are forced into this stereotype

If you are a boy and 'happen' to prefer skirts to trousers, school can make it very difficult for year. If you want long hair, school can say no. Why shouldn't a boy wear a skirt to school without being judged and without being bullied? Because society has rules /

However, if that boy says 'I feel like a girl', it's fine. He can wear what he wants.

Ego

They say 'F'

It's more practical for exactly the reasons you suggest. I did it before I understood things the way I do now. Same as changing my name. It's all about fitting in. Society fimds it easier to accept a "trans woman" than a man who presents in a way that is percieved to be as a woman.

Ego et al. I totally agree with the toxic masculinity point. Too many boys are forced into this stereotype. I blame Hollywood (!). Girls too: if we aren't hairless and slim and beautiful all the time, with long flowing locks then somehow we arent 'normal'. Of course this is daft but the stereotype continues. For this I blame Disney