This is bullshit thread #3

It will be a cold day in hell before I refer to Paris Lees as "she".

And Paris Lees is a revolting misogynst - a classic example of a TW appropriating and parodying womanhood with his love of cat calling and praise for double penetration. He can fuck right off.

Yup. Paris Lees performs "woman" in the way that men think women should perform. They are totally antifeminist.

Beyond

Dysmorphia is where sombody has a distorted view of their physical appearance. They may believe that they are fat when they aren't. They may belive that their nose is enormous when it's actually perfectly in proportion.

Body dysphoria is the feeling of acute and persistent emotional distress at being in ones own body.

Of course dysmorphia can lead to dysphoria.

Getting the two mixed up is super common. Loads of people do it.

No, we can really only change ourselves and it seems to me that anyone who denies the basic material of their body will have a sense of self that will inevitably remain wretchedly fragile.

I agree wholeheartedly Prawn. I came at this a couple of years ago firmly believing that TW are women and that anybody who said that we aren't was just a mean old nasty. It's taken a lot of hard work ro really, really challenge my own beliefs and listen to opposing viewpoints that at times were incredibly hurtful and hard to hear. The views cut at the the very foundations of my percieved validity. The truth will set you free, but first it will really piss you off.

I now have an understanding of myself that I believe is grounded in reality rather than a patently untrue belief system and I truly honestly believe that my mental health is ten times better for reaching this point. I know that my truth is nobody's truth but my own, but I still wish that more trans people could come to understand what I understand because I really think that they would be better off for it. It's a fucking hard journey, but the other side is much better.

Absolutely agree with prawn

And Paris Lees is a revolting misogynst - a classic example of a TW appropriating and parodying womanhood with his love of cat calling and praise for double penetration. He can fuck right off.

Sorry Helen - I typed dysphoria first and then (after my autocorrect changed it to dysphasia?) thought "no that's not right" and changed it to dysmorphia. I didn't have much luck before finding the difference, do you mind explaining what it is?

Hermione

Exactly. If blindly accepting that "transwomen are women" becuase some transwomen are OK and pass reasonably well and don't behave like dicks is the thin end of the wedge, then TW with an obvious physical advantage competing against women in sport is the next step that we are seeing. Then men with beards and suits in women's spaces comes next.

As a TS I obviously want to do anything that reduces discrimination against us and makes us safe as long as:

1. It's grounded in reality, otherwise it's unstable and not sustainable in the long run, and;
2. It's not at the expense of anyone else.

At the moment the trans lobby is ignoring both of these things. It's not transphobic for women to recognise this and to point it out and demand better.

What about Paris Lees and others? You've called them 'he' and 'blokes' on the Spartacus thread? I think that's pretty horrible.

There's nothing horrible about it, Ego. Paris Lees is a bloke. Pretending that he and the others listed in the Spartacus OP are women are what got us into this mess. Penis = man.

If you hate being described as male surely the only appropriate response is to work on yourself so that you don't react so violently to simple, uncontroversial facts? If it's true, what's your problem?

Expecting other people to engage in a sort of mass self-deception is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I appreciate that GID is horrible but there are umpteen physical and mental disorders in this world that are horrible and millions live with them.

I have significant physical/mental health problems including chronic pain and my mobility is not great. I am a widow and would love to marry again. Fat ageing women are not in great demand. I'm invisible to most men. My health problems would put a lot of men off, let alone the wrinkles...

However there's no mileage in demanding people lie about me. I don't insist that the world tells me that I'm young and slender. I do not demand proposals or sexual attention from men on the basis that not worshipping my body represents some sort of phobia. I use the skills learned over my lifetime to accept my truth, and my limitations, not try to evade them. We all have troubles. The world doesn't usually budge over accommodate us.

No, we can really only change ourselves and it seems to me that anyone who denies the basic material of their body will have a sense of self that will inevitably remain wretchedly fragile.

We all swim in a sea of gendered socialisation from the day we are born. It's as much a part of us and our personalities as anything else that has shaped who we are over the course of our lives. It's so all-pervasive that we can make little sense of ourselves and who we are without reference to it. That doesn't mean we're all comfortable with it or can't consciously reject it, but all those countless gendered experiences over the years are an inextricable part of who we are.

I think that this is a really great way of putting it. Whilst we may know that gender is something that is made up and forced upon us, and therefore we may reject gender itself as being valid, we can't ignore the fact that it exists and pretty much all of our experiences are in some way related to gender. It's reinforced from before we are even born and constantly in school, on the TV, in magazines, by our parents etc. If we all naturally have different personalities (that actually aren't linked to our sex), then it's quite easy to see how some males' personalities fall outside the acceptable range of what men are allowed to be and fall right in the range of what females are allowed to be. I think that's what people mean when they talk about gender identity. It isn't something innate akin to a soul. It's something that makes sense only with reference to that all pervasive social construct that we are all unwillingly subjected to.

Then as a seperate point is the feeling of body dysphoria (not dysmorphia - that's something different). The feeling that our body is wrong and needs to be changed. That the maleness needs to be erased. That it should be female.

Different people have different levels and awarenesses of these two things. It sounds like Ego experiences a lot more of the second component than the first (correct me if I'm wrong as I don't want to speak for you). I experience both and I was aware of the dysphoric element before I became aware of the socially constructed gender element. Actually I knew that I "identified as a woman", but I didn't have the understanding to know what that meant. I didn't understand gender as something that we learn.

Now that I'm armed with that it's much easier for me to accept that I'm male, even a man (thought I still associate that word with everything I don't want to be), but that I seem to fit the socially constructed expectations of what it is to be woman more than I accept the socially constructed expectations of what it is to be a man.

So the question is where does it come from? Is it nature or nurture? This is a real can of worms. There is some research that has been conducted with a view to finding physioloigcal reasons. Not are particularly convincing and there is probably more evidence suggesting no difference between male and female brains than proving a difference.

There has been relatively little study into finding psychological reasons behind this. There are some studies that investigate it using the framework of attachment theory. It has been suggested that a commonality amongst a large proportion of transexuals is that of an absent father (physically or emotionally) and that the child develops a need to become closer to the mother. Some people will recognise this happening where others will totally reject it. I certainly think that attachment theory is an interesting framework to investigate this.

We also can't ignore autogynephilia (agp) as a common theme as well. Agp is controversial and vehemently rejected by many in the trans community. I think that much of the rejection comes from ignorance about what the term actually means, and part of it comes from a fear that agp will be seen as a kink and there is shame attached to that. The other fear is of course that it clearly sets trans people with agp apart from women. Agp is understood by many to mean that somebody wants a female body because it turns them on. That their desire for transition is sexual arousal. And I think that for some this is true, but for many others, whilst the origins of agp are sexual in nature the erotic component has long since reduced and the "feminine" part becomes more of a core component of personality. Anne Lawrence is a transexual who writes excellently on the subject. www.annelawrence.com/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

Of course anybody who writes about this is villified, and discredited by the trans lobby.

Tbh, I wouldn't be happy if Gabrielle pipped my daughter to a place on that team, either. There's being born with an unfair advantage - and transitioning into that advantage.

Considering that both the age restriction and the one-term rule were waived for her, she transitioned into a lot of unfair advantages.

I agree with Hermione. This is the heart of the matter I think.

I think the difficulty is that many TW, even after gential surgery, still look born male. And that means it's not appropriate for them to be in rape crisis centres, survivor meetings, DV refuges and acting when a woman has requested a female HCP.

Gabrielle is a fully transitioned TW. She's still obviously born male and if I asked for a female HCP and she walked in, I wouldn't be happy. If that makes me a bigot, then so be it.

I really hate the conflation of sex with gender in terms of the language around it. When I see threads about "guessing the gender of my baby" from a scan it makes my teeth itch.

I don't have that sort of identity, either, Plenty, gender or otherwise. I have a core personality, for sure. And I was born with a set of tendencies to be good at some things & bad at others. None of this is sex-related; there are women and men all over the place with the same inherent qualities as me.

All the rest is experience - and, as we grow, hormones.

As a lifelong student of human nature, I don't believe there is any inborn sense of one's sex. Consequently there can't be any inborn sense of gender: we are taught our gender, beginning the minute our parent finds out whether we're a girl or boy, and the whole world colludes from that moment on.

It's a pity there's no gender-free cohort to study!

Old school transsexual is a very different thing to the new genderists.

YY this ^^

It's part of the whole "can't say sex" thing - I've started to notice it in textbooks now, health stats on heart disease split by "gender"!! 🙄

Old school transsexual is a very different thing to the new genderists. They are the ones determined to reinforce stereotypes, rather than seeming to be affected by sex dysmorphia. I often half wonder if they are undercover MRAs!!

pubegardens I agree with you. I really don't feel that deep meaningful sense of gender. I feel my life's experiences, my material reality. I don't feel some nebulous, mystical connection to femininity. I just happen to be a female human. For me gender is just stereotypes, nothing more.

The one thing that I think might make someone feel that they are the opposite sex is sexual orientation. I think if you feel attracted to the same sex, you might then feel more kinship with the opposite sex, because attraction tends to complicate things, especially relationships. So you might naturally feel more comfortable with the sex you don't fancy, because you don't have to worry about attracting them. I know that my DD was able to differentiate between men and women at a staggeringly early age, and that she has always been positively flirtatious (in the most innocent way possible) with handsome young men, frightened of older men, and comfortable with all women. So there is some clear evidence that she has already begun to feel an affinity with females, even as a baby.

Memoires I disagree. We all swim in a sea of gendered socialisation from the day we are born. It's as much a part of us and our personalities as anything else that has shaped who we are over the course of our lives. It's so all-pervasive that we can make little sense of ourselves and who we are without reference to it. That doesn't mean we're all comfortable with it or can't consciously reject it, but all those countless gendered experiences over the years are an inextricable part of who we are.

On the other hand - The other is something deeper and much more meaningful and personal, and is absolutely bound up with our sense of self, and others.

This sounds to me like god or souls or something. I don't have that sort of 'gender identity', I know some people who say they do but they seem unable to describe what it is. Maybe that's because it's so personal and deep, I don't know. I've nothing against people believing in that sort of gender if it enriches their life or sense of self, just as I've nothing against people believing in god or souls, but I won't live my life according to rules based on those beliefs.

I was never happy about the whole gender thing eg questions on forms used to ask for sex (biology) now ask for gender (imo personality) and then we are told they are the same.

If it is all about gender (feelings) then i am totally non plussed as to how anyone would wish to transition to a woman. Why would you want to be 'treat as a woman'. Sorry i am a bit late to the thread but this just strikes me as er masochistic. For want of a better word.

My impression (which could be completely wrong) is that for some trans people gender is exactly what it's about, while for others it's more to do with sex dysphoria, and for some (most?) it's a complex mixture of the two.

The problems for women appear to be coming overwhelmingly from trans people who are not at all unhappy with their bodies, it's all about 'gender', and yes as a group these people do a lot of reinforcing of gender roles and stereotypes.

this is all v interesting ego. as I understood it the new wave transgender movement is about gender ie feelings and stereotypes rather than body dysphoria which it is not necessary to have? what you describe sounds different

Is gender a word which now describes two different things?

One is more accurately called 'stereotype'. I'm not sure anyone identifies with a stereotype, but we all know what it in; nevertheless, it is not a part of us, of our personality, has nothing to do with our understanding of our own sense of self and who we are.

The other is something deeper and much more meaningful and personal, and is absolutely bound up with our sense of self, and others.

I think atm we use the word to mean either and both of these things and it doesn't help.

Ego, I'm sorry if I've laboured the point, and thanks for your patience. The reason I'm interested in the roots of dysphoria is because I think it's now taboo to even discuss it. I can understand why - it's similar to the debate about the origins of homosexuality; there is evidence to suggest that at least some individuals' sexual preferences are formed by early experiences, but it's a dangerous idea to discuss, because it leaves an opening for religious conservatives to insist that it can be unlearned (conversion therapy). And I know that TAs are really against any attempt to ease dysphoria with therapy - they call it conversion therapy too, even though it can often be helpful in inducing desistance. So I feel that the scientific community is going to ignore researching potential psychological causes of dysphoria because now it's only PC to talk about brain structure and other physiological effects. And I feel like this is a massive shame, because a better understanding of dysphoria could lead to much better modes of treatment and better outcomes for those whose dysphoria does not desist.

I sympathise that some people may not want to identify as men, as a class. In some ways i struggle being identified, and treat as a (stereotypical) woman. Both ideas place certain expectations and responsibilities on people that they may not wish to accept. These ideas, of what it is to be a woman for example have never been more pushed upon me than when pregnant or a mother to a young child. Ive spent many days since loathing my biology and wishing i were a man. Until you realise that its society that is wrong, with its made up roles and assumptions.

I guess what I'm trying to say (which has undoubtedly been said many times before) is that people should be treat as humans no matter how they dress, what their interests are or what they call themselves.

What i won't do is collude in people's delusions that it is possible to change sex or have a female penis. To me that is a direct contradiction to scientific fact. Until women have true equality then i believe womens spaces should remain as such, as they exist as a measure to alleviate some of the structural oppression we face in daily life.

I have lurked on the trans and feminism threads for sometime, but never have felt able to voice my opinion (my issue). however i have been following the recent threads with interest and felt compelled to post my (somewhat garbled) opinion.