This is bullshit thread #3

Yes... The 'convergence' is for almost polar opposite reasons and the media (not to mention the political parties!) who should be concerned about women's rights seem not to give a stuff. Which is why its all the more important that MNHQ gets the balance right on this.

Also, the reason you can only find trans-critical articles on websites like the Federalist and lifesitenews is that all the liberal media outlets won't touch this issue with a barge-pole, unless of course they're fawning over the "bravery" of men who pretend to be women in order to beat them at sports.

I really had no idea how unimportant women were to the left until this issue reared its ugly head.

I would love to not care - sadly I am a massive overthinker

I literally couldn't care less that the Christian right and I happen to converge on this particular issue. I am a feminist, first and foremost. My priority is the liberation of 50% of the earth's population, and my motivation for opposing trans ideology is wholly different to that of the religious right.

In fact in Iran the religious right actually supports transgenderism, because they are so uncomfortable with the transgression of gender boundaries and particularly homosexuality that they'd rather forcibly transition a person than accept them as gay or GNC.

Yy. I am extremely uncomfortable at being on the 'side' of the religious right, but then I'm also uncomfortable with the religion-iness of genderism. I can't win!!

Unfortunately some of the complaints about this sort of case may well come from bigots or at least, people with overall agendas very much at odds with many of us

I often think this another reason people are uncomfortable discussing this issue, as they are wary of being seen to align themselves with genuinely bigoted groups.

Unfortunately some of the complaints about this sort of case may well come from bigots or at least, people with overall agendas very much at odds with many of us. A link about this from the piece Helen last linked to www.lifesitenews.com/news/parents-outraged-as-transgender-male-beats-girls-at-alaska-state-track-meet. ... Ok of itself (and pointed out that students dont need to have undergone hormone therapy before transing in their sport which to some extent negates the 'evidence' in microferrets link). But then look at the context... The other stories linked to on that page look to include a mix of conservative christian homophobia, prolife etc.

Doesnt mean that they're not right that having biological males compete against biological females in sports is unfair but the motivations may be more transphobic than pro-womans rights. Urgh.

Further proof that "when gender identity wins, girls and women always lose" www.rawstory.com/2016/05/transgender-student-races-in-girls-track-in-spite-of-criticism-from-anti-trans-bigots/

It's the title of the piece that really galls me. We're bigots for not wanting to lose scholarships earmarked for girls to boys? what's to stop any boy insisting he is a girl to clinch a girl's sports scholarship, because he isn't fast enough to get a boy's? This is the slippery slope we're on

And don't even get me started on Fallon Fox.

About "passing"
If middle-aged transwoman really wanted to pass, they should aim to look like a slightly dowdy woman of their age & body shape
For example the actor that plays Mrs Brown, or Les Dawson when he played that bosom-hoiking lady, would both pass quite easily if they quietly went into a cubicle in the ladies loos dressed like that

But not if they wore full-on make-up, cascading long hair, glamourous frock & high heels, in the way that some transwomen do
Because real women of their age and body shape don't present like that

So middle-aged transwomen who dress like that, are not trying to pass as real women, but are fulfilling a fantasy , attention seeking rather than blending in

Fuck that was a long post without much useful content Just skip to the last two paragraphs.....

"The problem is not an absence of moral imagination; it’s an absence of objective reality. When gender identity wins, girls and women always lose. Biology matters, and not just in the imagination. There’s an undeniable power differential between the sexes, and it rarely ends in the favor of team XX. How many Christopher Hambrooks will there have to be before people are willing to name the problem? These aren’t hard questions; they just require hard answers."

thefederalist.com/2016/08/29/cruel-put-men-womens-shelters/

We can go to the moon but we can't invent and install penis detectors?
That's a damn shame ( along with noro and the common cold).

That's the difference for me too. Choosing the loo in which you blend in most easily....not always going to work really.

It's not that it's Ok to be trans because we're actually women. It's that it's ok to be trans because gender is bullshit and it's OK for men to be like that.
This.

Helen, you express yourself so clearly, thank you for your posts.

Also - yes to Prawn - very well put!

Yep - that's how I feel about PL too. I still can't bear to call them "he", but I won't be using "she", ever. The catcalling article was the absolute worst. It is surely clear to anybody that the only reason PL enjoys being dehumanised as a sex object is because it validates their gender identity. As usual, women's rights are completely belittled and ignored for the whims of one narcissistic (male) individual.

Helen it's interesting that you mention the absent father as a possible cause of dysphoria, because a distant father and an affectionate mother is the familial setup that has been posited as a precursor to homosexuality in certain males. And an absent mother can have an analogous effect on females. I have a gay friend who thinks that the root of his sexuality lies in his father's coldness and his mother's contrasting warmth... In fact I know several gay men who had absent fathers, and I think that can create an affinity with females and a hankering after male affection. I think it's really sad that we can't explore these themes because it's politically dangerous. It would help us understand so much more about the human condition.

The reason it's treated the way it is, is because of the high suicide rates amongst people with GID.

Do you have any data on suicide rates pre and post transition? I sometimes get the impression that while in some cases surgery "fixes" the person, but in other cases it just highlights the impossibility of becoming a women and that in itself is pretty soul destroying.

Bloody hell! I'm watching "I am Jazz" (I know, I know)and they've gone to this support group where a pile of teenagers are sitting around discussing what sort of surgery they are going to have. One girl who identified as gender fluid is going to have her breasts removed because she can pass as female without them, but can't pass as male with them. However she's not going to have a nipple grafts because she wants a blank slate chest, not a male or female chest. "That sounds like a political statement" says the group moderator. Cue lots of whooping and clapping from the kids in the group.

It just seems so wrong, at that age everyone is busy experimenting and figuring out who they are - surgery is just so permanent on what TBH seems like a trendy whim.

And I know some transwomen say they knew from the moment they were self aware that they were "in the wrong body" but how many kids convince themselves of this and go through irreversible surgery etc when they are confused rather than trans?

Sorry that was a bit ranty

Thank you Helen :)

Can I ask a massively "what-about-ery" question to mnhq re intentional malicious misgendering...
Women often post on mn to work their heads around abuse that happens to them, it is far from rare. If Davina Ayrton's (or similar - there are after all women here with abusive former DHs who have become Mtt) victim posted and kept referring to her rapist as "he", would she be supported or told off and maybe even banned?

Expecting other people to engage in a sort of mass self-deception is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I appreciate that GID is horrible but there are umpteen physical and mental disorders in this world that are horrible and millions live with them.

The reason it's treated the way it is, is because of the high suicide rates amongst people with GID. I actually don't see this as an emotional blackmail response because I've been there myself and its fucking awful.

BUT we need to understand what is the cause of the suicidal feelings. What else can be done to help this person cope? I'm not talking about conversion therapy to suddenly make someone be able to plod on in the socially constructed male role. I'm talking about helping to accept themselves as trans and accept that this is OK for males. To help people suffering from this to deconstruct gender. To allow them to live an authentic life expressing themselves how they need to without the need to pretend that we are actually female and have been all along.

I think that transactivists have made a massive mistake by destigmatising a lie instead of destigmatising the truth.

It's not that it's Ok to be trans because we're actually women. It's that it's ok to be trans because gender is bullshit and it's OK for men to be like that.

Of course that ignores the body dysphoria aspect, but I do wonder how strong the dysphoria would be if we destigmatised gender non-conformity without using wrong sex / wrong body / wrong gender as part of the narrative?

Prawn

Expecting other people to engage in a sort of mass self-deception is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I appreciate that GID is horrible but there are umpteen physical and mental disorders in this world that are horrible and millions live with them.

YY a million times.