This is bullshit thread #3

For me the root problem is this "identifying as a woman".

Because that's just nonsense, isn't it?

There's no hive mind package that comes with your vulva.

And even if there was, how could you possibly identify with it??

I can't 'identify' as something I have absolutely no experience of.

So for me, without wanting to be insulting or cause upset to anyone who is just trying to live in peace, I don't understand how you could make the choice to be a transwoman without buying into the gender stereotyping, misogynistic bullshit that is rampant in society.

And that's without even touching on the problems already being discussed by women far more eloquent and knowledgeable than me.

If you have a penis, you cannot go in.

But you cannot possibly install a penis detector at the entrance of every female space...

I've had a pretty busy time and have been catching up with this

Thank you all, massively important stuff being spoken about here. I'll bet that there's loads of lurkers taking on board what's being said.

And if i cant say that someone who says" suck my lady dick" or who uses their PENIS to rape someone is a man then i am honestly done on mumsnet

This is EXACTLY the point MNHQ.

Some TRA's are vile misogynists who are abusive to women and get away with it because they claim the protection of the trans umbrella and everybody is shit scared of being labelled transphobic.

It's not OK for these people to behave like this and to be influencing the way that women, and organisations and governments organise themselves or behave.

It's deeply anti-woman to let them get away with it.

Awesome!!!! Now i sound 12!!!!

I am backing away from the Drambuie (after this last glass)

And just in case that post gets deleted and i throw my toys out of the pram can i just say to ego and helen

I hope everything works out for you both, you sound awesome

a separate discussion about whether feeling like a TW means you are a TW

OMG YES. That really should be a thing!

Agree with aguycalled helen

I am angry about actual men ie my husband (who isnt trans but i am trying to find an example MNHQ wont delete) deciding for various nefarious reasons to call himself a woman

As opposed to an actual trans woman who for whatever reasons honestly believes that they are in the "wrong body"

And i am happy to refer to that trans woman as "she" and i personally dont have an issue with them in the loo (although i completely understand why someone might have an an issue)

But honestly can MNHQ not see a difference between ego or helen or the transwomen who frequent a few of our local "ladies" clothes stores and the absolute fuckwits who have no intention of doing anything even vaguely "womanly" they are just taking the piss

And if i cant say that someone who says" suck my lady dick" or who uses their PENIS to rape someone is a man then i am honestly done on mumsnet

(Although it is going to make the book swap a bit difficult )

The whole dysphoria thing is feeling restless with ones self and sense of being. Presumably that means that whatever sex you are, you are not going to feel like that is you. Almost like an ODD disorder, but against ones own actual being. Whatever/whoever you are, you don't feel like it's right, more that you are the opposing side of what you assess yourself to be.

That's a good description. Even though i rationally know that I'm a male and could never know what it feels like to be female, I feel much happier and honest and able to be open now than I ever did living as a bloke.

I know that this is really counter intuitive, but I really felt like a fraud before. I had to try really hard to modify my behaviours before to try to fit in as a man. Now I'm just me.

Oscar I hear what you say and it's so tricky it's almost like Ego/Helen/Miranda et al should be having a separate discussion about whether feeling like a TW means you are a TW

That's the issue Oscar. Follow logic and either anyone who says they are a woman is a woman (and woman is reduced to an essence or soul). Or biology rules and only people born female are women.
I don't actually think that works for most people, most people are happy to accept that people who feel like they are women,want to present as women and live viewed as women should be treated like women. But unfortunately the current TRA narrative and political changes force us to take a polarized view. And lots of people will come down one the side if biology as its a tangible thing.

The mods are probably wishing the Ada Wells thing hadn't gone thermonuclear before a bank holiday

I bet there's a lot of being drunk

I'm just place marking, this is such an important discussion & I don't want to miss what's being said. I don't have much to contribute at the moment but I'm reading & learning. So thanks to all who are discussing this in such an open & respectful manor.

I was on HRT off the internet and had facial hair done before I 'officially' came out. Some people knew but not many. I was getting second glances from people - especially in summer.

I used to get some strange looks in the male toilets and I eventually had to stop swimming - getting changed in a male changing room with developing breasts is not a good idea.

So when I 'came out', I was already at a good stage. It did help a lot.

The whole dysphoria thing is feeling restless with ones self and sense of being. Presumably that means that whatever sex you are, you are not going to feel like that is you. Almost like an ODD disorder, but against ones own actual being. Whatever/whoever you are, you don't feel like it's right, more that you are the opposing side of what you assess yourself to be.

Just marking to catch up on the morning. Also need to have a good long read of thread #2!!

Jeez MNHQ are hot on the delete button tonight, the duplicate thread and the Transphobia thread were nixed in minutes

The mods are probably wishing the Ada Wells thing hadn't gone thermonuclear before a bank holiday. I bet someone has had to cancel their plans to come in over the weekend to firefight.

I posted this on the Bullshit #2 thread in response to something Helen said about Alex Drummond. Is it really wanky of me to C&P it here? . There's been discussion of when are you female enough to use female spaces, so it's kind of relevant....

This is where Alex Drummond is coming from.

This is probably going to come out garbled, as I'm still working through the thought as I am typing.....

In a sense I agree with Alex Drummond and Danielle Muscato and all the bearers of 'lady penises'. (I have not gone mad - just hear me out!)

If, a transwoman is not and cannot become a woman, no matter what they do to themselves medically or surgically, and no matter how they present themselves in terms of name, dress, gendered behaviour, whether they do make those changes makes no difference to their sex. I argue that Danielle Muscato and Paris Lees are equally not women (and are therefore men) even though the former has not made any changes in outward presentation, whilst the latter has put a great deal of effort into achieving a highly and stereotypically feminised appearance. I consider them the same in that they both belong to the male sex.

So I am coming at it from this end. Alex, Danielle, et al are coming along the same path, but from the opposite direction. If you are a woman by virtue of the fact of having a internal female gender identity, your body is actually immaterial. It is your internal female gender that counts and that defines you. So if you were born into the 'wrong body', your body, whilst it may cause you emotional and psychological distress, is immaterial to you being a woman. Hence, there is no need to alter it in order to be a woman, because according to your definition of womanhood, you already are one. (Although you may choose to alter your body to alleviate any distress you experience.) According to this, Danielle and Paris are the same in that they are both women.

I agree with them that if transwomen are actual real women, then they are too. The point of disagreement is that I know that transwomen are not women. Womanhood resides in and is defined by biology, not an internal gendered identity. For them biology is irrelevant. For me biology is defining.

Is it a rejection of male gender roles and the desire for a female body that makes you feel like a woman?

Yeah probably. That and identification with female behavioural stereotypes.

Back in the good old days the rule of thumb was to use the loo you pass best in and keep yourself to yourself

And I think in the real world, the majority of folk wouldn't have an issue with that - it's a shame things can't be simpler

its all I know what you mean. But there are loads of things other people feel that I don't. So someone saying they feel like a woman or even feel female is ok with me.
Maybe its just semantics. Too late and I've had too much wine

I think "identify as a woman" means to identifty with the socially constructed expecations of what a woman is meant to be

If we can be honest about that then I don't think anyone would have a problem

YY

Ego - good point re MNHQ response.