This is bullshit thread #3

The thing is transwomen have been sharing our spaces for donkeys years, pre op and post op.

They haven't been strided about the place naked. Or exposing themselves.

All was fine.

The TA have blown all this up to the detriment of women and transwomen.

The problem is that the male violence which makes TW (and TM) fear men, is what makes women fear TW

Exactly. Kind of ironic, really.

I fear men. Not all men. But I know male violence. I know exactly what it is like as I have lots of experience of it.

I want to be safe. Just like women do.

I'm in agreement with you ItsAll, I think some of the more extreme end probably have a significant amount of choice.

when you say "non twatty" can you clarify that you don't specifically mean "without a twat" ?

It was shorter than typing non misogynistic, non sexist, etc ...

I suspect that at the extreme TRA end of the spectrum there is a greater element of choice involved

I suspect so, too.

The problem is that the male violence which makes TW (and TM) fear men, is what makes women fear TW.

That said, I doubt the unpleasant TRA types fear men at all, but the fear felt by those TW who are of feminised appearance is something they willing use to try and push in to female spaces.

What about trans men? I cannot imagine the fear that they must experience - as usual, it's male violence and the fear of male violence. The elephant in the room of this conversation

I think they should use the facilities they feel most comfortable in , and I think male violence is a massively important issue on its own.

Itsall I may be having a fundamental problem understanding you all of a sudden, but....

Maybe toilets should be signed women + non twatty TW? when you say "non twatty" can you clarify that you don't specifically mean "without a twat" ?

ut I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be found helicoptering their penis in a womens changing room

That's it - if you have dysphoria, the last thing you would want to be doing is 'helicoptering your penis'.

'Women and non-twatty TW' :D :D :D

Helen I realise this is going to sound horribly patronising and sycophantic but can I just thank you for your answers on this thread?

It's such a relief to be able to discuss it without being completely (sometimes I suspect deliberately) misunderstood.

And of course you can only speak from your own experiences but I appreciate the viewpoint just the same.

but it's still something that happens to us rather than something we choose.

That's a really interesting point. I suspect that at the extreme TRA end of the spectrum there is a greater element of choice involved, or am I being really unfair?

Maybe toilets should be signed women + non twatty TW

What about trans men? I cannot imagine the fear that they must experience - as usual, it's male violence and the fear of male violence. The elephant in the room of this conversation

Frankly it's shit and nobody would choose it

It's not something you choose. It's the hand we've been dealt and we have to live in the world just as everyone does. We do what we have to to survive and get by.

I'll be honest and say I don't want to get involved in that debate

The problem is there shouldn't really be a debate. Folk should use the spaces they and the other occupants are most comfortable with. I don't know if the TW I know have had bottom surgery, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be found helicoptering their penis in a womens changing room. A decent person is empathetic to others. This was said on another thread but my DP is the same - won't walk close to a woman at night in case he makes her feel vulnerable. I'm pretty sure the TW on this thread are the same.

The problem is these people who declare it is their right, without any consideration for others?

Maybe toilets should be signed women + non twatty TW?

chastity belts

{spits wine all over keyboard}

So for me, without wanting to be insulting or cause upset to anyone who is just trying to live in peace, I don't understand how you could make the choice to be a transwoman without buying into the gender stereotyping, misogynistic bullshit that is rampant in society.

Really great question and not upsetting at all. Firstly I don't think that anyone who experiences dysphoria chooses to be a transwoman at all. Frankly it's shit and nobody would choose it. I'm not asserting that it's biological, it may well be psychological (there isn't enough research to be conclusive) but it's still something that happens to us rather than something we choose.

I think that we all buy into the damaging stereotypes whether we like it or not. We have to live in a society that reinforces it every day. Even if we are critical of it, we are still influenced by it.

I know that the phrase "identifying as a woman" is used a lot but it's a really meaningless phrase. How could we?

But you cannot possibly install a penis detector at the entrance of every female space...

That's a godawful sentence, but I know what you mean (and no, you don't mean chastity belts)

I'll be honest and say I don't want to get involved in that debate about changing rooms and safe spaces. I can see the issues from all sides and it's not that clear cut. I have been burnt too many times on here in the past and I don't honestly think it's possible to have a discussion that doesn't get nasty.

Maybe helen will.

Exactly Helen . Why should you share an umbrella with someone who'd happily see you get drenched in a rainstorm, or take the umbrella from you completely?

Can I just say how wonderful it is to actually be having respectful, nuanced conversation about these things without it descending into to a big fight.

Thank you all.