This is bullshit thread #3

They may not be the same - but society doesn't really care and does not treat them as blokes.

But surely that is an issue with how society treats the sexes. And the answer is, to paraphrase Alex Drummond, to broaden the bandwidth of what it means to be a man.

The issues may be the same in some cases, but transwomen are not the same as women

Calling them 'blokes' as on the other thread does not mean society treats them as blokes. That's the issue I have with that thread. Society TREATS them as women or transwomen. They may not be the same - but society doesn't really care and does not treat them as blokes.

Some are different. Some are exactly the same.

The issues may be the same in some cases, but transwomen are not the same as women.

maybe. its hard to say isnt it cos of course the only ones I know/have seen on tv or photos dont pass. but I suppose thats the point - if they passed I wouldnt have noticed, right? I read something the other week about how women can tell when another woman is ovulating, and they behave differently, even if they are not consciously aware of it. mad really how our primitive animal brain works. I think thats part of what makes it so hard to truly pass. but I have to say my issue would not be with a person who I completely believed to be female.

I dont know whether many transwomen really pass

I would disagree with that. And those who do do face a LOT of the same issues that women do and that women are facing everyday.

Some are different. Some are exactly the same.

see also many transkids - look like they are going to grow up gay - quick, make them a girl/boy

Noone is advocating that transwomen (or transmen) are oppressed Ego. But it's not the same path as women's oppression. Parallel paths perhaps, equally important, certainly but not the same. Lumping them all together is contrary to women's welfare.

I dont know whether many transwomen really pass. maybe transmen more? I also often wonder if the prejudice transwomen who dont pass face is actually homophobia (regardless of sexual orientation). women who dont conform often face homophobic abuse as well (again regardless of sexual orientation)

Ego

Sadly society is fucked up. I'd don't even begin to know how to address that.

I also agree with Fugg

In an ideal world men and women should be able to "present" however they like without any fear, or any pressure to change to the "correct" sex.

There was a thread over in feminism a few weeks ago about "What makes a woman" but I think this is the wrong question, as it's not really relevant to transwomen.

What we should be asking, is what does it mean to 'live as a woman'? As this is where the NHS comes in. How do we define living as a woman in anything other than stereotypes? And this is important when this definition is being used as part of a treatment for people who have mental health problems (depression, anxiety etc. not just dysphoria).

It seems there are many posters here who are happy to share space with transwomen who 'live as women' (for want of a better phrase) yet it also seems like the transwomen who most seem to live as women are the ones that understand that they aren't women as opposed to the ones shouting and stamping their feet that they are women whilst displaying stereotypically male behaviour.

The problem is addressing the result is often way simpler than addressing the cause...

One issue I have with the 'other' thread is that there are transwomen who you really cannot tell are trans. And yes, that does come down to 'judging' and 'passing'.

You may call them a bloke but society treats them as female - along with all the shit that can come with that. Being subject to male violence, being judged on appearance, sexism, being treated as a second class citizen etc - all the issues that are discussed by feminists and are real issues. Obviously there are some concerns that they won't ever face due to not having the biology.

However, society looks at them and treats them as female - you can call them male all you like but that does not hide the fact that society treats them as female.

Then you've got those transwomen who don't have that issue - but instead they are treated as transwomen, subject to the fear of male violence, ridicule, abuse and a lot of discrimination. You can call them male but again, society does not treat them as male but treats them as transwomen - along with all the shit that comes with that.

We should be fighting for everyone to be treated equally regardless of who they are. We should be fighting for women to be treated equally and not have to fear male violence, sexism and being judged / oppressed by their body.

You can call a transwomen 'male' but society does not see a 'male'. They see a woman or a transwoman and treats them 'appropriately'.

^^ why? Why must we have those spaces? Why cant trans people just stick with their own born-sex space?

Because they don't feel like it? Or because there are so many arsehole men about that a man looking different to most men feels unsafe in the men's loos?

In which case that is what needs to be challenged.

Instead of teaching our children that if they don't feel as per long-standing social stereotypes say they should, that means they have the wrong brain/body combo so therefore they need to go around denying biological FACT, we should be teaching them that everyone has the right to be how they want to be within their own sex and shouldn't be predujuced against. (That's a long sentence - hope it makes sense)

Allowing spaces for trans is addressing the result, not the cause. It validates and escalates the issues and will take a hell of a lot longer to reverse and put right than it will to address the issues from the ground up to begin with.

Just going to apologise again for any other poor choices of language in my post - I have a fucker of a head cold and it seems to be messing with my ability to think straight and write sensibly.
My first line, for e.g. - this debate is FAR MORE than an "intellectually stimulating exercise" for my brain, it is making me re-think stuff hugely. I also may owe Dittany an apology - I can't remember if I posted, but I certainly read her vehement posts that were anti-transwomen being allowed access to women-only events - and thinking at the time, "how unenlightened, how unaccepting". Didn't see then what she foresaw - that it was the "thin end of the wedge". How right she was :(

But are Mtt at risk from ftt

I think many women would be uncomfortable at having an apparent man in the female space with them.

"But if we have separate facilities for both Mtt and ftt, do we need separate again for genderfluid/pan-gender/agender/otherkin whatever. Or do they all have to share an additional third (fifth) space?*

I think it depends on the specific facility - toilet would ideally all be like disabled one are currently - enclosed toilet and sink in individual rooms.

And of course as the overriding issue is male violence that needs to be addressed, but goodness knows how...

Great thread!
I forget who said upthread, but I agree the debate about safe spaces isn't actually about access for trans people. Its about reducing access for sex offenders.
If I am getting changed after going to the gym and someone else comes in and just gets changed next to me, I don't care, its all fine. I probably won't even look long enough to notice if they are a TW as not looking at naked people is gym etiquette.
If someone who looks very male comes in and starts staring at me, then I want to be able to challenge them without finding myself on the wrong side of the law for being "transphobic". I don't want to have to put up with them there staring until they have comitted a proveable crime. I don't want the criminal justice system to be the only way to get perverts out of my space.
Add on top of that how difficult it is to prove sex crimes when its one persons word against another and it worries me a lot.
We know so much now about how predatory men groom victims and the lengths they will go to to commit crimes. I don't understand this kind of wilful blind spot, that no man would ever abuse the new gender rules to offend. Its counter to everything we know about sex offenders.

But are Mtt at risk from ftt? I honestly have no idea of the stats re that. But if we have separate facilities for both Mtt and ftt, do we need separate again for genderfluid/pan-gender/agender/otherkin whatever. Or do they all have to share an additional third (fifth) space?

Or do we just have a third "unisex" option for all?

God I hope no one is insulted by this! It just made sense to me as to why FTT aren't standing up and yelling about why they should be allowed to infiltrate male-only spaces.

YY. We mustnt forget about the FTT - if we conclude that single sex spaces must remain single sex, then we don't just need separate safe spaces for "the third sex" we need separate safe spaces for MTTs and FTTs individually, rather than just thinking about a safe space for Ts.

I'm going to go back and read all the posts, I'm really finding this debate/these threads amazingly mentally stimulating!

But this has started buzzing in my head and it's distracting me from reading so I'll type it out, then go back and finish reading, apologies.

I had a thought about why there is less issue with FTT entering man spaces. If I may use a really crass analogy, it's like wolves and sheep.
Men are the wolves (dominant, oppressor) and women are the sheep (non-dominant, oppressed). For a wolf to dress as a sheep in order to enter the sheepfold, the only ones at risk are the sheep. For a sheep to dress as a wolf and enter the wolf pack, the only one at risk is the sheep.
Either way, the sheep is at risk - always at risk - so the sheep aren't willingly going to advertise their insistence that they enter the wolfpack, because they know they'll be putting themselves at risk by doing so.

I AM NOT saying that "all men are wolves" - far from it and I wouldn't be so insulting. But you cannot tell which men are "wolves" - so as a "sheep", it's a helluva risk to enter a potential wolf-space, where there might be sheepdogs or there might be wolves; and it's a helluva risk for the "sheep" when someone who may or may not be a wolf enters "sheep-space".

God I hope no one is insulted by this! It just made sense to me as to why FTT aren't standing up and yelling about why they should be allowed to infiltrate male-only spaces.

Someone could always start a change.org petition asking the government to cease accepting of non-biological facts and stop any further movements to include men in women's prisons etc.

Someone who can put it much better than I can and can succinctly explain why the trans movement is so damaging to women, to children, to men.

the born in the wrong body thing always seems so woo/cod religious, as if the speaker believes in souls wandering around homeless. like religion, it has zero scientific basis but you cant prove its not true apparently

Morning all. Is there any way we can out a link to this thread on #2? Just worried people may get lost.

What are we going to do? Are we just waiting for a statement from MNHQ? I imagine that will take some time as they need to get back to work and then spend time on thinking this through. Or is there something more IRL?

I said similar re the bisexuality trend at school on the previous thread, it waa definitely the in thong and this does remind me of it

Unrelated to anything really (the talking more gently made me think of it), but a sort of celeb I sort of follow recently came out as transgender. (I won't go into detail as they haven't done anything "wrong" to be openly criticised, iyswim).

They said via an announcement thing that their voice will not change. Oh you can guess - first time I hear them speaking in their new persona, they're putting on a new voice.

Not thesis ffs!! theory