Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

Ego if you want to use the Muslim analogy, I would suggest it is more like transactivists=ISIS transpeople = Muslims

Hence the difficulty in finding moderate ISIS/transactivist views?

MNHQ: I am not equating transactivists to ISIS except in the context of an analogy used by another poster.

The reason why you won't point to kind, inclusive transactivism is because like us, you don't know where it is.

That's the only conclusion you leave us with.

But an Islamist wants Islam to be integrated with politics? No matter how moderate, it is incompatible with secular society? Transactivism is no different?

So yes, "they think all women are cuntscum" is wrong (I don't see how that sentence alone is 100% clear they are referring to AFTA/TRA's and not Ada, but ). "They think gender is innate" not so much

I would be interested (not cause of this thread, it happens a lot) in views as to whether persistent intentional derailing should be added to the the talk guidelines?

Wow, this thread is such a great example of the OP starting out as one thing, an attempt to get clarification from MNHQ on discussions surrounding women and lesbians &a deleted thread, and it has been derailed by the same conversation that had the last thread deleted. I nominate thus thread for fucking Classics, it is such a shining example.

MNHQ, any suggestions on how to keep important threads from constantly getting derailed?

So, to be clear, Ego, you object (rightly) to Ada Wells being considered a spokesperson for trans people, and (rightly) to the suggestion that all transactivists are at the extreme end of the spectrum. But when asked for names of transactivists with more moderate views you refuse to give them.

"I have to confess I have never actually seen or heard of any transactivists who don't tend towards the extreme, and I would be interested to read there views if anyone can point me?"

That is a really interesting point. I think the problem is, that declaring that you are the opposite sex because you feel like you are, is in of itself an extreme position. There's no way you can water that down really.

Like any religion: if you believe in God, then that's an extreme position. If you're absolutely certain in the knowledge that God exists, then that in of itself is an extreme belief.

The thing with the God religion, is that it can be contained to some degree, by all of us agreeing that the people who go in for it, can continue to go in for it and we can all just ignore it and that way we can all rub along quite happily.

The transreligion otoh is based on the idea that the rest of us must submit to the ideology and agree or at least pretend to agree, in their religion. Further, if we don't do so, the law should ensure that in public spaces, should we mention that, we should be punished.

There's no such thing as a moderate transactivist who declares that s/he/ they are the opposite biological sex just because they feel like they are.

However, there is a moderate "wing" as it were of transactivism, which does not declare that just feeling like the opposite sex means that you are the opposite sex; if you look up Miranda Yardley (she's just the one I happen to know most about, but there are others) you'll find that she does not claim she is a woman. She says she's a man, but she feels like a woman and she feels happier living as a woman so that's what she does.

I'm happy to support transwomen like her, because they are attached to reality, they don't hate women and they are not on a constant trip to exert power over women by making us comply with a religious doctrine. And for publicly saying what she says, Miranda gets unbelievable levels of threat and insult from mainstream religious transactivists.

"their deletion message suggests that they really think we all want threads entirely full of discussion of pronouns"

Just to be absolutely crystal clear to mnhq, I did not want to discuss pronouns, I wanted to discuss Edinburgh uni's silence on the hate speech of Ada wells.

Can we have some examples of moderate transactivists, please?

Anti female transactivists.

I think (?) it's like the distinction between "Muslims think" (=no) and "Islamists think".
Trans people think (=no), transactivists think (=Noone has shown me otherwise)

Though I am far from an expert on Islam to know for certain that "Islamists" is appropriate usage, it's just something I've seen here recently.

I asked a genuine question Ego. I haven't been rude to you at all, and I am trying to learn and understand. I took the term 'transactivist' to literally mean people with similar beliefs to Ada. If I'm wrong I apologise, but I'm coming from a perspective of genuinely open learning.

I think the description AFTAS is good

I have read the full thread and have forgotten what that means

I think the description AFTAS is good.

HQ frequently delete whole threads (not just individual posts) when they get out of hand and there are loads of reports flying around. The deletion messages on those threads never really makes sense. There is absolutely an element of sanitising the site and keeping the advertisers happy in that.

Meanwhile, can I make a special case for banning the next poster who uses that tired old thing.

I think MNHQ have gone to have a lie down, having seen the god knows how many threads.

I bet they never want to see the word they again.

Oh no, I just referred to MNHQ as they. Is that wrong now?

Fuck I can't hack this.

The "what is a trans-activist?" question is quite an interesting one.

Obviously at one end of the spectrum you have extremists like Ada - but even at the other end of the (presumed spectrum) it can be problematic.

If "moderate" transactivists are eg fighting against discrimination what does that mean ? If it means they are fighting for the right to be treated as a woman there are obvious issues.

I have to confess I have never actually seen or heard of any transactivists who don't tend towards the extreme, and I would be interested to read there views if anyone can point me?

"You cannot demand one rule for you and people you agree with, and one rule for everyone else."

That's exactly what can be demanded by some groups. And MN will comply. Because they're all over the place on this one.