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Original poster

Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

288 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/08/2016 23:09

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

OP posts:
BeyondLovesSweetDee · 25/08/2016 11:41

That sounds perfectly reasonable to be, batteries.

And, for a bit of what-about-ery, it potentially comes from the other side of the debate too. When LGBTSoc is one 'place', people who are getting to uni quite sure that they identify as the other gender, and could end up feeling pressurised into same sex relationships because (in different ways - no surgery or hormones for a start) it is easier for them.
That's the problem with putting people with such different needs in the same 'box'

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2016 11:36

batteries - YY, that sounds quite similar to my sense of what the LGBT soc was like, and I'm roughly contemporary with you. I do agree, it's complex and obviously it's an umbrella group which is going to offer different things to different people, which is fair enough. As I understand it the 'black and minority ethnic' soc has pretty similar issues, of obvious reasons.

I think it's completely sensible and understandable that societies change as people change. I didn't know one openly trans, nonbinary or genderqueer student when I was an undergrad. I know loads now.

But what's worrying is that I think it's hard for women to explore what their sexuality even means. There should be space for that too.

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 25/08/2016 11:35

Buffy has it. We can't politely discuss it and agree to disagree. It just doesn't work.

JacquettaWoodville · 25/08/2016 11:29

Nailed it, Buffy.

Batteriesallgone · 25/08/2016 11:24

I am straight so apologies if some of this is a misunderstanding on my part.

I was at uni ten years ago. The LGBT society never did sit 'right' and I suspect it never has. However seperating it out, though discussed among students back then, was agreed wouldn't work. Basically because uni is often the first opportunity a lot of young people have to really think about their identity and sexuality away from the pressures of parents and people they've always known.

My understanding is/was that many get to uni knowing that for example they don't want to have any more fumbles with people of the opposite sex, but don't yet identify as gay. I knew a few - one lesbian, two gay men - who thought that they weren't gay, they were the opposite gender, as that seemed easier to process in many ways than being gay. So a man dressed up as a woman can look at himself in the mirror and say it's ok to fancy men, because I'm being a woman.

Unfortunately providing support to the students who were still working out their identity was very much at odds with the needs of lesbian / gay people who came to uni in full knowledge of being gay and wanted to use the LGBT society to meet partners and feel less like the 'only gay in the village'.

This was my impression from uni ten years ago from working with the student uni president (a lovely guy who got drawn into these debates quite often) and from having lesbian/gay friends with direct experience. I didn't know any transsexuals though just a few gay men who got into the drag queen scene.

It doesn't surprise me that the 'T' section of LGBT societies is pushing out the others now that 'T' is more mainstream and has a louder voice. Personally I think - and felt at university - that women's societies should come back in a big way.

I think there are a lot of women identifying as straight, and now they'd be married with kids, who if they had had a female society with a strong lesbian society subsection would have had more chance to fully explore their sexuality and be happier for it. I am thinking particularly of a couple of girls I knew who were clearly in a romantic relationship without sex, but were also in DV relationships with male students, which kept them in their place as receptacles of penises.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 25/08/2016 11:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 25/08/2016 11:08

Agree that we have gone backwards.

BertrandRussell · 25/08/2016 10:53

"I think in some ways we have moved backwards, actually."

Yep.

MorrisZapp · 25/08/2016 10:51

Lesbian is being dropped because it sounds transphobic? Oh my lord.

Egosumquisum · 25/08/2016 10:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MorrisZapp · 25/08/2016 10:48

I was at university donkeys years ago and i had no awareness of the gaysoc as I was too drunk.

I suppose I imagined that the gaysoc and now it's current incarnation was a positive, safe and supportive place for young gay people in amongst an almost violently straight social scene.

This story about Ada has made me realise I'm clueless about the prevailing gay rights culture amongst young adults. I'm alright Jack but I have a son and I worry so much about the future landscape for him if he is gay, or that of his friends etc.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2016 10:47

I think in some ways we have moved backwards, actually.

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Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2016 10:46

In the past week, I've heard someone say they prefer the term 'queer' to 'lesbian' because they associate 'lesbian' with excluding transwomen.

I am part of a group for lesbians, who are currently debating the use of the word 'woman' in the group title, because it might be seen as transphobic.

I am reading academic papers discussing these terms, and I can't count how many come out every year.

I don't think this can be dismissed as something trivial, or something that's just about young women getting a bit silly and worried (as young women are so prone to do ... Hmm). Yet, that's how I think it's often framed. As if you can say 'yes dear, but just don't be transphobic and there will be no issue'. People's thoughts and feelings are not as clear-cut as that.

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BertrandRussell · 25/08/2016 10:46

"I really hoped we'd moved on and things were easier. But this is something that I don't really know about.

What are the issues?"

Seriously???????

Tell you what. Why not go and Google.

Egosumquisum · 25/08/2016 10:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 25/08/2016 10:45

Mnhq have commented on the chat thread

Where please?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/08/2016 10:44

What are the issues

Lesbians are inherently transphobic. They are also incredibly shallow for focusing purely on someones genitals rather than their personality.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 25/08/2016 10:42

I was confused by a question from a form put up on the deleted thread that asked for sexuality, which then listed I think straight, trans, queer, and a couple of other options but not gay or lesbian. As if trans/queer (can't remember the other option, might have been agender?) would have no sexuality such as straight, bi, gay, lesbian, pan, asexual, and lesbians and gay men didn't exist. The confusion at all levels seems to be huge.

There would also be many MtF trans people who would identify as lesbians and see their chosen place as being within a separate lesbian society, which again raises the issue of conflicting needs and agendas, and the conflict of the view that self identifying women have the right to be recognised as women and included in all women only activities, and the view that born women have the right to born women only activities and spaces.

Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2016 10:42

ego, you realise, you're now asking the sorts of disbelieving questions you fly off the handle at when other people ask them. You are also asking for information in precisely the way that makes you start telling people to go and look on the internet.

However: yes, for many people, it is still very hard to come out. For some people, it is harder now than I think it was ten or so years ago, because they are concerned that lesbianism cannot be about attraction and genitalia.

Of course, for some people, genitalia really aren't a big component of attraction, but for others, they are. And I see a lot of young women who are unsure how to negotiate this.

There is also a lot of religious pressure, which I think is on the up and up. A backlash, if you like.

And there is the influence of porn, which I think is getting stronger and stronger, and reinforcing the idea that lesbianism is all about being extremely sexually available.

Finally, there is the pressure of people who believe that the issues are either solved, or greatly reduced, and therefore make young women feel guilty for even admitting to having these worries.

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Egosumquisum · 25/08/2016 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 25/08/2016 10:35

Mnhq have commented on the chat thread

Egosumquisum · 25/08/2016 10:32

This reply has been deleted

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Original poster
LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/08/2016 10:31

I've come across suggestions, both to drop the T and for lesbians to separate out. I think both are tricky, though. Sexuality being as it is, if you transition, people's perception of your sexuality will change - even if you originally identified as bisexual and still do, because we view bisexuality through a gendered lens anyway. There's also some evidence to suggest that transitioning can shift your sexuality in itself.

Lesbians separating out seems to me as if it would be lovely, but what worries me so much is that a lot of students seem barely to feel they're allowed to be lesbians, let alone ask for a space to themselves.

OP posts:
Egosumquisum · 25/08/2016 10:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 25/08/2016 10:30

It was LGB when I was at uni late 80s, and very closely tied in with the women's officer post and groups.