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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

288 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/08/2016 23:09

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/08/2016 23:30

See - basil, I honestly don't think I agree with you entirely, on this.

Which should be fine, and interesting, and worth debating. I would love to be able to discuss this stuff, and figure out where we all stand, and how we're using terms like 'lesbian,' and what we think about the relationship between nature and nurture, and so on. It seems important to me.

But we never seem to get to have those conversations and I want to find a way. Surely, even if you end up concluding I'm lesbophobic or I end up deciding you're transphobic, it is better to be able to discuss these things than not?

OP posts:
MatildaOfTuscany · 24/08/2016 23:30

Yes to Basil's succinct summary.

AskBasil · 24/08/2016 23:29

Oh farkin ell to understanding people will want to discuss pronouns elsewhere.

I never want to discuss fucking pronouns ever again.

I am sick to death of pronouns.

Egosumquisum · 24/08/2016 23:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

russetbella1000 · 24/08/2016 23:29

With LRD obviously...

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/08/2016 23:28

ego, you are just not being truthful.

OP posts:
AskBasil · 24/08/2016 23:28

Is it transphobic to not want to sleep with a person with a dick because you are a lesbian, MN?

Because transactivists say it is. Lesbians think it's lesbophobic, to tell them that they are bigots for not wanting to have a penis in their body.

Funnily enough, no-one calls heterosexual men transphobic, for not wanting dick.

Only women.

Got that definition yet?

Greaterthanthesumoftheparts · 24/08/2016 23:27

We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps

Or we might like to discuss women's ishooz (apparently they're not all that
Important) without being accused of being transphobic.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/08/2016 23:27

brek - yes. I'd like to be able to discuss how young lesbians are forming their identities, especially. They're a group who seem to me to be at risk in a lot of ways, and it is a really important debate.

OP posts:
Egosumquisum · 24/08/2016 23:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Italiangreyhound · 24/08/2016 23:25

How sad, we now cannot call a spade a spade, or a misogynistic bastard a misogynistic bastard.

Surely rules about referring to each other by preferred pronouns should apply for those we are speaking to/with, not random 'celebrities' who put their stories out there and whose stories we discuss on an anonymous forum!

Snowshimmer · 24/08/2016 23:25

YY OP and ThatStewie.

Coffeecoffeebuzzbuzzbuzz · 24/08/2016 23:25

I read the thread with interest as the Edinburgh University issue was something of which I was unaware but didn't get a chance to post before it was deleted. It's a shame the thread ended up derailed as it has curtailed debate.

Egosumquisum · 24/08/2016 23:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AskBasil · 24/08/2016 23:24

Is there a dictionary definition? Or is it just made up as we go along?

Brekekekex · 24/08/2016 23:24

I'm with you, LRD.

And I'm pretty taken aback that Special was banned. I was on the thread from beginning to end and thought she was polite and reasonable.

I'd like to think that we can talk about threats to women's rights, and the abuse and erasure of lesbians from minorities rights movements, on this site in particular, without constant derailing and deletions.

Egosumquisum · 24/08/2016 23:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

situatedknowledge · 24/08/2016 23:24

I didn't see the personal attacks, but surely those could have been deleted and the valuable and I think important issue re EUSA be continued to be aired?

AskBasil · 24/08/2016 23:23

Could you please define what you mean by the word transphobic, Mumsnet.

MorrisZapp · 24/08/2016 23:23

Personal abuse? Oh no you figgy didn't, lady.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/08/2016 23:22

The full message is here (drawing attention to the last line!):

We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

OP posts:
ThatStewie · 24/08/2016 23:22

The deletion message misrepresents the discussion on the thread. Many of us were discussing Edinburgh University's decision to allow an elected student union official to engage in misogyny and anti-semitism, as well as harass and threaten female students. One person on the thread was complaining and, frankly, deliberately derailing the thread to talk about pronouns. To suggest that numerous posters were engaged in deliberate misgendering and transphobia is fallacious and unkind.

NauticalDisaster · 24/08/2016 23:21

Why are you silencing our voices, MNHQ? Pulling the thread just after reinstating it was a poor decision. even if you don't want us to post on it anymore why not reinstate it but lock it for new posts? It was a good discussion.

AyeAmarok · 24/08/2016 23:21

Oh did that thread get pulled? For that reason? There was a lot of offensive stuff on there (to women). Shouldn't be surprised it got pulled for the opposite reason.

Priorities seem very skewed on here at the moment.

HopeClearwater · 24/08/2016 23:21

I was following that thread with interest and fail to see what justified deletion of the whole thing. Discussion was totally and unnecessarily shut down imo.
Agree with you, LRD