Banning the term "cis"

Males can't become females so no, trans women are never the same as women

Surely there's just women and people in the process of becoming women

Ie you either are a woman or you are not but sometimes you can be changing into one

I'd love to see a bunch of straight men debate being called cismen

"If "women = "women who are transwomen and women who are not transwomen""

It's not, though.

Which part of woman = adult human FEMALE do you not understand?

That's the logic fail with the concept because woman =/= trans woman

Cote - you make perfect sense. I don't agree with you but you make perfect logical sense.

It doesn't do the job fine though.

If "women = "women who are transwomen and women who are not transwomen"

And "transwomen" means "women who are transwomen"

Then there should be a word for "women who are not transwomen".

It only does the job fine if "women" only ever means "women who are not transwomen".

And it is a crying bloody shame that
most of the trans women who appear in the media seem to be making a pretty good job of confirming the prejudices of the bigots as well as alienating the many people who would happily be allies.

Trills - "whether a word is needed"

The word is 'woman' = adult human female, as I any dictionary.

Transwomen are not women because they are not female. This is not a value judgement, just observation of objective reality.

I am perfectly prepared to call trans women "women" as a courtesy. But I am not prepared to let them dictate my behaviour. They do not have the years of socialisation and shared experience that women who are born women have. They cannot speak for me. They are perfectly free to call themselves what they want. They cannot tell me what to call myself.

Trills - no. Woman is sufficient. A woman who is a transwoman can make that distinction if she wants - having the 'cis' qualifier only serves to 'other' her.

No Sorena it makes no sense at all.

Not wanting to be treated the way society treats women does not make you not a woman. It is society that is wrong. If the shoe doesn't fit, change the shoe not the foot.

Sorena, no not really.
The difference between a woman and a trans woman is that a woman has been raised a girl. The woman has been subjected to gendered expectations from the moment that her sex was observed, even if that was in utero.
The woman has been limited, held back, suppressed, taught to be quiet, subsume her desires, defer to men, put others first, be kind, be sweet, be sexual, be pretty, be available (but not too available) and all the rest of the socialised crap that is imposed on girls and women.
Trans women have been raised as boys and socialised as boys. They have no idea what it is to be a girl. They can not understand the experience of being raised a girl from birth.
Essentially, people are all just people. But we socialise boys and girls differently (I wish it were not so but it is) and so therefore trans women and women are not the same.

I don't think there's a need for such a word, no. 'Woman' does the job fine!

Bertrand, venus, Errol thanks for answering.

So if (some) trans women do fall into the category of women, then do you think there is no need for a word for "women who are not trans women"?

Or do you think there should be a word but you don't like the word cis?

A lot of the discussion here has been around whether people pretend to be trans with ill intent and whether being trans is a "real thing" at all and whether gender as a construct is bad for women.

But none of that is relevant to the question of whether a word is needed.

Empress As you said, no I can't explain how all women are the same inside, and obviously they are as diverse brains-wise as everyone else. I really don't understand gender, like you and most other people here, and I don't really feel I have one, which is why I primarily identify as agender. But could you explain to me what you think the difference is between a 'woman' and a 'transwoman', besides biology. If the transwoman passed completely, and you would have no way of knowing that she was biologically male, then how would you tell the difference? I mean, I wouldn't be able to, I've known lots of both transmen and -women, and they are the same to me, but besides biology, how would you tell? I don't quite understand.

Also, I don't think everyone who not hyper masculine or -feminine is non-binary, you can still be a man/women without being extreme.

I think it is also how you feel when people gender you in a certain way. I know a transwoman who would be upset if someone saw her and read her as a man (the gender, not the biology), which is how she found out that she was not a man. Same with me, when I have periods where I feel 'gendered', if people refer to me as woman, with she pronouns, call me miss/madam, I feel uncomfortable, because people might see me in a certain way because of that, which is why I know that I am not that.

Did that make a bit of sense?

Just felt I needed to relate this.

At DD's prom, the girl in her class who has decided she is really a male went dressed in a grey suit. Sat with the girls, had her photos taken with the girls. Won Prom King.

Made me quite sad.

Trills, depends what 'trans'. Transitioned transsexual - yes, I'd call them women. 'Transgender' who say they're women for a while and could just change their minds? No, they really aren't women. Mtf Transexuals somewhere on the hard journey of transition? Personally I'd tend to extend them the courtesy of calling them women.

Omfg violet stop seeking male approval ffs

What definition of 'woman'? Adult human female? Or societal role? I only really use the 'adult human female' definition personally - probably because i am not really much of a woman by the 'societal role' definition - well maybe a bit as i am the main childcarer but wrt clothes/appearance i would be a big fail. I have massive tits but thats biology - its unfair to class me as 'performing femininity' on the grounds of my body.

No that's not necessarily true Trills.

"So would it be correct to say that the people who object to the term "cis" are those who believe that trans women do not fall into the category of "women"?

Does anyone disagree with that?"

Yes. I disagree with that.

There are also plenty of transwomen who know they are not women. Miranda yardley being a well known example. The irony is that I find it much easier to accept her as a woman, because she doesn't behave in that very male way of expecting women to stfu and listen so she can tell them where they're going wrong.

So would it be correct to say that the people who object to the term "cis" are those who believe that trans women do not fall into the category of "women"?

Does anyone disagree with that?

Both of those statements are true.

Please let's not turn this into a "trams women are not women " thread when in actuality it should be a "women ARE women" thread.