'Reclaim the internet' - how to create a more woman-friendly online culture

Bloody hell Ego

You're ok with women, girls, ethnic minorities, LGBT people being driven out of mainstream public spaces by hate? (This is NOT about views; it's about hate.)

Words fail.

personally i think women have a great means of communication via mumsnet and similar

i don't have a problem with mysogonistic views and would prefer an open free internet where all views can be given

that was always the point of the internet...

Chilled, you have set up a straw man. If you read my post, I didn't say anything about criminalising what is currently free speech (I'll let others talk for themselves). And take it as read that we understand the point that people should be able to criticise others - you're labouring this but I doubt any of us don't get it. There are a range of things that can be done that don't involve criminalisation. Off the top of my head: police training and encouragement to prosecute online crime, quicker action to take down revenge porn, ISPs reviewing their editorial policies, education to improve young people's understanding and resilience.

Watching with interest.

The libel case I quoted earlier was where a wealthy conservative politican received damages for being libelled on Twitter.
Also fair, because such libel causes as much harm as being libelled in a newspaper.

I don't think anyone advocated criminalising unpleasant rightwing or misogynist views.

However, if you make physical threats or racist remarks against Obama, the authorities would try to track you down and probably prosecute - definitely would for threats - just as if you said this in rl.
That seems fair: same laws & consequences for the internet as for rl speech or publishing in a newspaper.

What many of us want is that the law be enforced for ordinary victims of online violent threats or of racial abuse, just like they would for public figures.

So chilled i take it you also think that the n word should be used to describe a person of colour.

because in both instances the they are derogatory terms In one case it is racist in the other (calling women sluts and whores ) is mysogynistic Both are prejudiced and vile.

For example posters/ tweeters etc repeatedly reported should have their internet via the media they've used be it mobile or home suspended

Trouble is you could have MRAs filing multiple reports on feminists.

I agree, that is a threat rather than just saying something offensive. And threats should be, and are, dealt with by the authorities. My argument was that simply saying offensive things shouldn't be criminalized, because it sounds like a lot of posters think they should. For example people are talking about reporting it when women in the news are called sluts and whores. That's really nasty things to say, but people do have a right to say things that you find offensive. You have the freedom to tell the world your thoughts, but others are allowed to react to that opinion in a negative way. Whether that is by challenging it in an argument, or by insulting them with nasty names because of what they said. Like I said, I have lots of comments I want to make about Obama because I hate him. I'm pretty sure that any Democrat would find what I have to say offensive, but it's my opinions, it's my thoughts, I don't give a damn if it offends you, because I have a right to say it. And by extension to that, I think you are wrong to be going along this line of thought that offensive stuff should be banned or criminalized. Why should it be a crime if you get upset by what I have to say?

I think you guys are massively overreacting. Offensive stuff shouldn't be criminalized, because a person is entitled to say how they feel even if you get offended by it. If they found what you said offensive, you wouldn't want to be in trouble for it would you?

I hate Obama and I have lots of things to say about him. Democrats would likely find each and every comment I have to make about him offensive to their views. But I'm damn glad I have the freedom to be "offensive" by challenging what they think.

If you're fingering MN, you're on a different page to this thread, MissMatted.

I have just pulled up the last youtube video I watched, according to my internet history. It is a martial arts demonstration sequence by a 5th degree black belt, i.e. someone very, very good. However, the exponent happens to be a woman.
Look at the most recent comment. And that is mild for youtube and twitter. Yet it is still demeaning and reduces an accomplished athlete to the status of sexual object.

50% of mysogonistic tweets from women. Not to mention the bullying here on MN. Maybe change the attitudes of women?

Great to hear that Justine is speaking at this conference.
It is a real problem and particularly the threats of violence put off women

My opinion is that anything posted online should be a criminal offence if it would be criminal when said in rl, i.e. threats of violence, hate speech.
Unfortunately women have not been awarded the legal protection wrt hate speech as some other vulnerable groups

Civil law already seems to apply online for the wealthy, e.g. Sally Bercow's Tweet of "innocent face" was found in the High Court to be libellous rowards Lord McAlpine and she had to pay libel damages.
We need protection for ordinary people too.

The findings that "women are responsible for half the online misogynistic abuse" refers imo to how women have been socialised to sharply criticise the behaviour of other women that does not fulfill some accepted high standard.
An example of this is victim-blaming especially towards women who have been assaulted or subject to domestic abuse. Another example is body-shaming or criticing other aspects of behaviour.

However, abuse from women is highly unlikely to be in the form of threats of rape, stabbings, bombings: this is the most frightening abuse which needs to be tackled urgently - and it is overwhelmingly from men & boys.

I think the sites themselves need to take more responsibility to moderate, control and delete quickly the offensive stuff that gets posted. The trouble is both Facebook and Twitter are very poor at acting on the more serious reports they do receive.

It's very very simple to "reclaim the internet" GCHQ can back trace to who the abuser is. Then proper legislation with real teeth is used. The reason that people behave abusively is that they don't think there is any real punishment for committing crimes of abuse.

Take Jessica Valenti for example and the 1000's of abusive emails and tweets she gets, if the US Government was to fine each abuser $100 for each abusive message that they send then the Governments coffers would be much richer.

But then it would require Government to work with Telcos and ISPs and websites and for transnational cooperation, eg If abuse originates in the US at a UK citizen then what? Who does the fining? If Sony can have an individual fined for copyright theft, then governments can do the same regarding online abuse.

If I was to stand in the high street on a Saturday afternoon shouting the kind of online abuse women get with a copper nearby I'd be bang to rights.

I won't accept that it's too difficult to do as the noise to signal ratio of online abuse compared to decent use, because of the volume of data transmitted, given the compute power sloshing around the internet that goes unused, its just a case of having the will to do it.

So I think the only way the internet can be "Reclaimed" is for a strong message to be sent that it is illegal and the perpetrator takes the consequences of committing a crime. Online abuse must be criminalised.

SpookyRachel while it is important that people feel they can say something without being threatened, it's also important that they understand they can be criticized and challenged by people who don't like what they said. They should not feel that they can be shielded from unkind words. That's the fundamental value of any free society. You can mostly say what you want, but others have the right to respond to you in a negative way, even if what they say upsets you.

I draw the line only where threats are made. Calling people sluts and whores shows a lack of any real intelligence argument, but there should be no legal penalty for it. If they feel that having an opinion on something makes you a slut, good for them, it just shows what a douche they are. The only time there should be legal intervention is when people make threats, like rape threats.

I agree Tara. I often watch videos of an atheist nature and try to avoid the comments as they are horrendous in their attitudes towards women (and other races/religions).

A commenter was musing the other day why there were so few women in the online atheist community. One guy posited the theory that it was because women didn't have the rational thinking skills . I wanted to say that it was that the atmosphere wasn't welcoming to women (particularly those whose ideas didn't fit with the official viewpoint) but was too wary of the abuse I might get.

It just discourages participation. On videos about immigration the level of ad hominem attacks that non white people get is also bad.

It is a huge issue. I have a hobby that is female-dominated, and yet the youtubers are overwhelmingly male. Part of that may be a cultural confidence issue, but part of it is definitely the hostility online to women. It certainly is in my case- I am as competent at it and explaining techniques as many a male youtuber, but it will be a cold day in hell before I expose myself to the abuse and demeaning comments I would receive for being a woman.

Name calling is one thing, threats is another. I've seen many threads where a woman had shared an opinion to be inundated with abuse. A few example of this include; "I'll rape you to death." And, "you deserved to be raped, I'd do it myself."

This kind of abuse also seems to be worse when the voice is from a women of colour, especially at the moment, Muslim women.

These trolls are threats, and I think they should be treated as seriously as any other threat. We need a way to police and put to justice people who make these vile statements against other online users, and send a message that behaviour like that is not acceptable and not tolerated.

Glad this is being addressed but it's not just the abuse directed to women who produce content on the Internet.

It's the way some talk about women. Reading comments in YouTube is a depressing experience, littered as they are with words like "bitch" "whore", etc to describe anyone who they disagree with or who expresses a semi feminist viewpoint.

It makes it a very hostile environment fir women to even comment.

And if the comments are complimentary they are often of a sexual nature.