Pronouns

Calling a biological male a man is not "humiliating" them. It's a fact.

The Equalities Act does not require us to tell lies or say we believe men could be women and it would be an Orwellian state of affairs if it did.

Further I consider gender dysmorphia to be a real, and horrible condition which I wouldn't wish on anyone.

But it doesn't make the person a different biological sex. I would feel very, very sorry for them but I wouldn't consider their wish to be female (if they weren't) credible any more than I would consider Rachel Dolezal to be black, and to treat her as such, accord her the rights of black people or any validity in occupying their spaces.

What's the difference?

I detest being forced to call someone who is male 'she' or 'her'.

That's biologically incorrect and as such it's a lie.

People can pretend to be whatever the hell they like, but a man who was born male and remains male, biologically, cannot be female and thus calling him 'she' or 'her' is incorrect.

I won't do it. I may go along with the pretence if it occurs face to face. I will not do it during generic discussion.

I'd rather have every post I make deleted than do that.

Sir is a title the same as Mr or Mrs surely

OhShutUpThomas
Brilliant post.
Sums up exactly how I feel about it all.

When transracialism becomes a protected characteristic in British law, then yes there would be the same protection.

At present it is not included.

That other groups do not at present have the same legal protection is not somehow an excuse to harass or demean those which do.

And the law in England and Wales (and I think the other home nations too) is entirely framed in terms of assessment from the point of view of the recipient of the behaviour, not the perpetrator.

There are many people who think certain racial descriptions are accurate and fit their understanding of the world. They are rightly restrained fro using them at will, or publishing them on Mumsnet.

Interesting you use the racial comparison - because if, for instance, a white man blackened his face, identified as a black person, and insisted on their right to be referred to as "black", the law would not protect him.

Yet a white male can wear a dress and wig, identified as a woman, and insist on their right to be referred to as a woman, and the law does protect them.

"I think I have the right to use language in a way that can be clearly understood, is honest, and fits with my own understanding of the world.
What right does anyone have to deny me that?"

The Equalities Act for a start. Because bullying/harassment, as pointed out above, is decided from the POV of the person on the receiving end.

There are many people who think certain racial descriptions are accurate and fit their understanding of the world. They are rightly restrained fro using them at will, or publishing them on Mumsnet.

I miss the days when the only transgender person in the public consciousness was Hayley. Who was consistently 'she' on prime time TV.

I can't see how someone else's gender preference actually has any effect on anyone else?

I used to think this too.
It's actually INCREDIBLY damaging to women. Read the thread currently running in feminism chat about the trans NUS candidate.
More and more men are invading the space of women, quietly taking away our rights, safe spaces, and women specific roles, and we're supposed to just stfu and go along with it?

They had a conference on FGM cancelled because it was offensive to trans people to talk about something that not all 'women' could experience (ie those who are biologically male). We're supposed to be fine with this; wouldn't want to upset them!

They are pushing for the law to be changed so that anyone with a penis (ie men) can get changed in the girls changing rooms, use the girls toilets, and stay in rape crisis centres. We're supposed to be fine with this; wouldn't want to upset them!

They are trying to appropriate women centred roles, such as 'women's officer,' so that rather than an actual woman with actual woman experiences, we have a biological male pushing the trans agenda. We're supposed to be fine with this; wouldn't want to upset them!

They are trying (and have managed, in North America) to change language in maternity services so that midwives can't use the word 'woman' they have to say 'pregnant individual' instead, so as not to offend trans people.
Yes, really. We're supposed to be fine with this; wouldn't want to upset them!

They want to be allowed to compete in female events in sport, with their biologically male bodies obviously having a huge advantage over women who have trained and fought for years for a level playing field.
We're supposed to be fine with this; wouldn't want to upset them!

They don't want to be women. They don't want to join us as equals and help to fight our fights. That's been proven.
They want to change the definition of woman to suit them, and sod our suffering.
These trans activists aren't fighting for more trans rights - I'd gladly support that. They want to REMOVE rights from women and take them for themselves.
They're not fighting for trans rape crisis centres. I'd gladly support that. They want to take OUR rape crisis centres.

Well I for one have had enough. This is just biologically male people yet again telling women how to behave, to shut up, to fuck off, and to toe their fucking line. More and more people are beginning to realise this.

I'm happy to support anyone's rights - but not at the expense of the rights of half the population.

This is far bigger than pronouns, but I for one won't call a man a woman. I'll say 'they.'

I think the extract from the website above does clarify things quite well.

If any member of MN refers to a transsexual member in a way that transsexual says is offensive to them, then that is harassment.

However, it is not possible to harass a collective, unidentified group. So saying that "all trans-woman are men" is not harassment.

The grey area comes when a poster refers to a public transsexual figure by a pronoun that others find offensive. That isn't harassment. It is not possible to harass someone if they are not 'present'. However, as this is an open forum, it is reasonable to assume that the person may be present. Whether or not they are harassed is something only they can confirm.

I understand the need for MN to remain on the right side of the law, but would like to see all potential harassment treated in the same way - and that means that if any poster is offended by something another posters have written about them, then it should be removed.
If the moderation of other forms of harassment is not as robust as moderation of transsexual harassment, then that in itself could be viewed as sexual discrimination.

Actually I think people are being amazingly patient with your goady fuckwittery.

But I am off to bed so you'll have to get someone else to be your PA because you're too lazy to Google stuff yourself

Here, try this website: lmgtfy.com

Why? Are you planning to be the first?

"The law would disagree with you op.

As does anyone with good manners"

^
This

How awfully ignorant

Sometimes I feel really, really old.

And glad of it.

So I would say it's pretty clear that you cannot harass transgender people on Mumsnet and expect your post not to be deleted because MNHQ have a legal obligation to take all reasonable steps to protected transgender people from harassment.

And just to be extra clear, harassment would be to deliberately use the pronoun the transgender person considers to be wrong. Not what you think.

And just in case your ignorance extends to reading comprehension here is the relevant bit taken from that link:

Harassment

Harassment is when someone makes you feel humiliated, offended or degraded because you are transsexual.

For example a transsexual woman is having a drink in a pub with friends. The landlord keeps calling her ‘Sir’ and ‘he’ when serving drinks, despite her complaining about it.

Harassment can never be justified. However, if an organisation or employer can show it did everything it could to prevent people who work for it from behaving like that, you will not be able to make a claim for harassment against it, although you could make a claim against the harasser

Sigh. Can't you Google?

Try looking up discrimination and harassment with regards to Equality Act 2010. This is a good starting point: www.equalityhumanrights.com/your-rights/equal-rights/gender-reassignment-discrimination

But let's not pretend this is anything other than plain old fashioned bigotry and arrogance on your part. You are saying you know best.

Well collectively we the people have decided you are wrong. We evidence this with our anti-discrimination legislation and laws like the Equality Act.