Pronouns

If folks are maliciously misgendering to cause offence, we will remove the post

How do you tell if a poster is using he/she in a gender or sex context?

Thanks for your reply Rebecca.

You said "If folks are maliciously misgendering to cause offence, we will remove the post. If there is a discussion about misgendering and posters are using examples or stating their personal views, that is different and will remain.

Presumably then, when people are intentionally misgendering but out of principle rather than malice, this would come into the second category and would be left to stand?

PrettyBrightFireFlies

I find your shortening of my name pretty offensive! Am I really worth so little that you can't be arsed to type an extra nine characters

I feel MNHQ should remove your post as it was offensive to me.

itsall..fine Well, why not?

If MN HQ have decided that they are going to remove posts in which they think misgendering was used maliciously, to cause offence, then why shouldn't other posts be moderated in the same way?
If they're not, then I as a woman, am being treated less favourably than other people (transsexuals).

2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8
round each number individually and you get
2 + 2 = 5

I find this kind of thing useful in separating those who are considerate of others and have good manners from those who aren't and don't.

but would like to see all potential harassment treated in the same way - and that means that if any poster is offended by something another posters have written about them, then it should be removed.

Hell no! Are you serious?

So if a factual statement like 2+2=4 makes some people feel humiliated, offended or degraded then everyone must pretend that 2+2=5?

Yep, that's about the size of it. Even if the lie offends FAR more people.

It all boils down to, whose feelings are more important? All women, or a small minority of loud men?

Sadly, even now, in 2016, it is perfectly acceptable to upset and offend a large majority of women, to spare the feelings of these few men.

Different century, same old shit.

So if a factual statement like 2+2=4 makes some people feel humiliated, offended or degraded then everyone must pretend that 2+2=5?

Perfect OhShutUpThomas

The fact that so many people identify with a gender that doesn't match their biological sex just goes to show what a load of old bollocks inherent gender is, imho.

But I would never knowingly offend an individual by using a pronoun that made them uncomfortable. Why would I? It's no skin off my feminist nose.

Absolutely genuine question, by the way. I'm very interested in how we stand with regards to the law on free speech and transgender.

Why? Are you planning to be the first?

Are you suggesting that legal action could be taken against mumsnet if they allow users to make comments that trans people claim makes them feel humiliated, offended or degraded because they are transsexual?

Not yet magical.

So, just to clarify, is it illegal to refer to a transwoman as "he"?

OhShutUpThomas - what a spot on post. I am just astounded by the NUS situation.

You know, I fully support the rights of people who like to dress in a way they think society will perceive as 'female', not to be harassed for it. I don't think anyone ought to be getting harassed for their personal preference in clothing or appearance or whatever.

I just think that if this is the goal of trans activists, they are going about it all wrong, by trying to validate the dysmorphic status as 'woman' when in fact wanting to be, or identifying as, the opposite sex, does not make a person validly that sex.

It is what it is. They want to be female. They are not female, even if they have hormone treatment and surgical procedures to remove their penis.

They can never actually be female.

I think it's really sad to suggest that accepting them as female is the way forward. In interpersonal terms, it would be called 'humouring' someone.

That's different.

Humouring people's dysmorphic condition does not go as far as redefining the rules for everyone else, too. And it shouldn't.

I would be the first person to stand in front of someone dressed like Anna Lee, and try to protect them if they were being got at or threatened by someone, in a real life situation. Nobody deserves that. They have a human right to be treated with respect and not subjected to violence or humiliation.

When it comes to politics however, mine could not be further from theirs, and I will use whatever tools I have to hand to fight what they are trying to do to women.

sex and gender-reassignment are both protected characteristics.

The clash here is that I would say he/she is based on sex, and others would say they're based on gender.

In any case, basing them on sex is common and correct usage, and I can't see how it can be harassment personally to continue that usage.

I can't say I've noticed the same surge of appropriation of male spaces and roles when it comes to female-to-male transgender

Well one, women wouldn't do it because they don't grow up with male privilege, and two, the men wouldn't stand for it.

Should one of us paint a tash on and run for MRA president?

One problem with using preferred pronouns is that it becomes difficult to explain, for example, why a male individual running for NUS women’s officer is offensive and/or a problem if we must call him "her", like this person were just another ordinary woman. The problem becomes invisible that way.

Interesting you use the racial comparison - because if, for instance, a white man blackened his face, identified as a black person, and insisted on their right to be referred to as "black", the law would not protect him.

It's more than that.

It's the same as a white person blacking themselves up in a caricature of what they consider 'black' to look like (much like most trans people do to women - they tend to dress not like most women, but more like their fetishised idea of a woman; big boobs blonde hair skimpy clothing), then:

• telling black people how hard it is to be be black

• receiving awards for 'black person of the year,'

• running for leadership positions in organisations about racism etc

• banning talk on slavery, as as a white black person it's not something they have experienced

• and lastly, shouting 'RACIST!!' at any actual black person who dares to say, 'er, but aren't you white?'

Laughable, isn't it?

BUT THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO WOMEN.

And because it's men doing it to women, it's allowed. Obvs.

Fantastic post, OhShutUpThomas

(Un)surprisingly, I can't say I've noticed the same surge of appropriation of male spaces and roles when it comes to female-to-male transgender