Pronouns

I'm a bit confused.

I was on the NUS thread at the start and used the phrase 'bloke in a dress'.

Then later on I came back to the thread to read that other posters were complaining that their post which used this/a similar phrase were deleted.

So I checked mine but it was still there.

So did my use of that phrase stand because :

1. it was missed
2. it was a statement of fact
3. it wasn't deemed to be malicious
4. it was aimed at an individual rather than a whole minority group

I've not been on mn trans threads before so didn't realise how contentious the use of language was in this topic on this forum.

OhShutUpThomas
The problem here, is that there really is no difference between what Dolezal did, and what transgender people are doing.

I'm not sure how you can make that claim. Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition, with resources and treatment available to support those who want it. The term might be recent but the condition isn't. Rachel Dolezal is one person, who as far as I'm aware, does not have a recognised condition, or at least not one known to the public. There seem to be no other examples of those who have done something similar. Without more information, you are not in a position to say there is no difference between the two.

On the subject of pronouns - it's possible to avoid using them altogether. I think it's pretty unpleasant and unnecessary to e.g. refer to a transwoman as he.

🚪🐻🐬

exit if you're a dolphin now, won't the bear chasing you get wet? Does it think you're a large salmon? Too. Many. Questions.

The dolphin is implied.

Can you not see it ?

Oh well. Your loss.

Are you a dolphin pursued by a bear then, or exit pursued by a dolphin? Or perhaps the dolphin formerly known as exit pursued by a bear?

I am identifying as a dolphin. Please prefix any reference to me appropriately.

as if anyone would mention me

Yes Flora, that's the question. I am baffled if MNHQ's position is defined solely on popularity of the issue and not on the principle at stake.

So, paris lees says "actually i find catcalling fantastic"...

Trans-racial person says "not only do i identify as black, but i find it empowering when you call me nigger, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong"

Okay, non?

If there was a group of people doing what Rachael Dolezal did, they would be a minority group. Would that make a difference?

Ok ugh - so if someone white 'identified' as black, and wanted everyone to refer to them as such, and insisted that everyone say 'black woman Jane Smith says....' in front of all their quotes, whilst claiming to speak for black people and racism issues etc (having experienced none of them) you'd think this was just fine?

And if said black people said 'actually, we find this pretty offensive. Black isn't a feeling - please stop appropriating us' what would you think then? Should they just suck it up and let the white pretender have their own way, regardless of how offensive it is?

It's exactly the same.

I find it baffling that this is even an issue.

It is really not difficult to use someone's preferred pronouns. It's basic politeness. Don't be a dickhead about it. It's not hard.

Not sure i can agree i'd be polite to his face, that seems a bit of a stretch

Ha I think everyone can agree on that!

I wouldn't be horrible to David Cameron in person either, but he's still a knob and more importantly he's wrong about almost everything

I'm glad you and others wouldn't be cruel to someone's face.

I can't comment on the rest of your post though as I don't get involved in the ins and outs of trans stuff. As long as people care about the feelings of people on both sides then I'm all good.

Actually, what stands out to me about this entire issue is how arrogant it is to call yourself something you're not and you cannot be.

No, as I said before, I would humour them Waitrose. I'm usually polite to people in person.

That's not the same thing as supporting legislating on their behalf, when it infringes on the rights of women.

Actually, what stands out to me about this entire issue is how arrogant it is to call yourself you're not and you cannot be.

I often feel like I could get away with redefining myself as a man. I have some traditionally male behaviours, wear 'men's' shoes and clothes regularly and do traditionally male things.

I would never, ever decide that I could therefore be a man. I would think that so disrespectful towards actual men.

Oppressed sex or not, they are men, they know what it is like to be a man, they have usually gone through things that most men go through, which aren't always a heap of fun.

For me to call myself an actual man, and demand everything, every recognition that went along with that, would be, in my mind, fraudulent, as well as disrespectful and arrogant in the extreme.

So why is it Ok for other people to do it? It's not. As long as you are quiet, discreet, don't cause any hassle for the people of the opposite sex, then you can probably get away with using their facilities and being treated as though you were of that sex. It's called going about your personal business. And you shouldn't be discriminated against for doing so.

But presuming to stand for them in a political arena, to demand you be included in their spaces, and to claim that you are, technically and legally and in every sense one of them, is utterly, completely wrong.

I hope it would be easily done as I'm sure that person would be absolutely devastated if you called them something they wouldn't prefer to their face, especially your child for example.

Possibly not Waitrose but I would possibly go out of my way to avoid referring to them by name or pronoun at all. Easily done in a one on one conversation.

Any trans-able person who sits in a wheelchair (assuming they dont have trans-invisible-disabilities or trans-deafness... ) would have the much coveted amongst MTT "passing privilege"

What about trans-abled people? Theres more than one of them...

One of the things that muddies the water, in my opinion, is that there's no requirement for transwomen to have undergone any medical procedures whatsoever in order to claim transgender status. In fact, most don't. And there's no requirement to make any effort to present themselves as "feminine" ie to make any effort to pass.

So you've got fully intact adult males, often not looking even remotely female, who claim that they are women. And that's all they have to do - declare that they identify as female and that's it, everybody must accept this as fact. Questioning it is bigotry and misgendering them is violence.

I guess you should be able be able to. However isn't it just kind and good manners just to be polite?

I doubt you would call someone that opposite of what they want to be called to their face...