should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

Presumably then since you have heard me you can no longer deny that anti Semitism exists, surely

Bertrand and others have asked about on MN. There is no doubt it is increasing in RL. But the OP is about casual anti semitism on MN

Also interested why Bertrand - I think it was her/him - was amazed at the level of tolerance I few up with in my childhood? Why amazed at the tolerance ? That seeks to imply that the reverse should have been my experience - a lack of tolerance . I wonder why you think that ?

"The OP talked about increasing casual anti semitism on Mumsnet.

If I say I haven't seen it, it doesn't mean I don't think it exists- it just means I haven't seen it and please will somebody show it to me. I'm not pretending I haven't seen it-I genuinely haven't. So saying "See? That proves it, you're in denial" is just not helpful!"

Bertrand . I've shown you how it exists . Do you still doubt as in your earlier post to me you expressed remorse that my family feels " so embattled." Presumably then since you have heard me you can no longer deny that anti Semitism exists, surely ? Just then interested why you posted what you did above ?

katmanwho
So what "casual" views on MN do make you anti semitic?

I have know Idea, but to use an example from another thread, a poster said that the word "uppity" was racist as it was used in the USA to put down black people.

Are we all supposed to stop using "uppity"? Is this casual racism or taking it to far?

I had to go look up the term "beck" because like other posters, I had thought that "Beck" was an artist that sang songs.

Opinion presented as fact with the intention of discrediting an entire people is (in my opinion) racist

That happens on MN a lot.

Opinion presented as fact with the intention of discrediting an entire people is (in my opinion) racist.

To deny the Shoah is anti semitic for example.
To claim there is a Jewish plot to manage all media for sinister means is anti semitic.

These are not "casual" views, they're lies.
They're frightening.

"Casual" by definition would suggest throwaway, ill considered opinions given by ignorant but not necessarily anti semitic people.

MN is not a hive of anti semitic activity.

"I honestly can't see the anti semitism on here -aside from the Israel and circumcision talk

it is the "aside from" part that links it to anti semitism

I posted that - what I mean is - the only time I ever see people mentioning anti semitism is when people talk about those 2 issues. People then get accused of anti semitism.

I think people have made it clear that talking about those issues is not anti Semitic. People who are anti semitic may of course talk about those issues because they are anti semitic.

Other than that, I haven't really seen other accusations of increased casual anti semitism on here. There are posters who talk about the Zionist media control - but I suspect that's a small minority.

As Bertand pointed out, I am sure MNers would want to pick up on it and tackle it. We are all aware that discussing Israel and circumcision does not make you anti semitic.

So what "casual" views on MN do make you anti semitic?

HumptyDumptyHadaHardTime
"Again being against anti circumcision is not anti semitism"

"Again, people aren't saying it is."

From this thread

"I honestly can't see the anti semitism on here - aside from the Israel and circumcision talk."

it is the "aside from" part that links it to anti semitism

"Which means that the need for the State of Israel to survive is something that, in her experience and in mine, Jewish people agree on."

But who on earth doesn't agree with this?!

Surely, if the question (the only debatable question!) is "should the State of Israel survive", the "side-taking" is political antisemites vs everybody else?

Oh I get your point.

"Jews support Israel that is why they are not on the other side of the palestinian debate"

You don't (or won't) get the point so maybe just move on.

Or try again by reading my Turk/Armenian post.

You're preaching to the converted here Bertrand!
We're going round and round in circles!

To address some points:
-Do i personally think you are anti semitic?
No.

-Do we both feel that the anti circumcision debate is anti semitic per se?
No.

-Do all Jews feel the same vis a vis Israel
No.

I could go on.
I do think we have more opinions in common than not.

The original OP was tackling a perceived rise in anti semitism on this forum.
On first reading the OP my initial feeling was that there isn't a problem on this forum.
However, reading on, some points made have been misguided.

Anti semitism has many guises, a seemingly innnocent and throw away generalisation presented by people with an unexplained hatred of a whole people can be one.

I think many Jews have been intentionally or unintentionally offended in their lives.
The same sentence delivered by two separate people can either hurt or amuse.

The Zionist media comment amused me as i'm sure the poster is unaware of the gravity of her comment.
The samle comment made by an anti semite would however sicken me.

Cote -
I was obviously not saying that all Jewish people agree about everything - i.e. Not on the same side about everything but on the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
It is perfectly normal of course that they would think of Israel's security and best interests as a priority. What I mean by "the other side" are those who don't - objective parties as well as Palestinians and their sympathisers.

Bertrand - *"And every Jewish person I have ever met, whatever their politicial affiliations, has had, understandably, a very strong- you could say visceral- connection with Israel"

Cote - Yes, and that is why they are not "the other side" in the Israel-Palestiian debate.

Well, she said it.

Maybe she didn't mean it then.

Still, hopefully we can move on from this idea that all Jewish people are blah blah and all the others are blah blah.

For the avoidance of doubt this is what I said However, in my experience, Jewish people who stand out against the Israeli government's policy on Palestine get a very hard time from their co religionists. And every Jewish person I have ever met, whatever their politicial affiliations, has had, understandably, a very strong- you could say visceral- connection with Israel. Which must make not supporting the government's policies incredibly painful

"'All (later modified to most) Jews support Israel that is why they are not on the other side of the palestinian debate" is both wrong and unhelpful. I genuinely can't see why you want to polarise debate in that way."

Oh, dd's, Helmet, you must know that neither of us said that. You must know. Why on earth are you doing this?

I gave some examples of anti-semitism some time ago. They concerned ISIS and European Jews.

The first response was:

Are you saying that opposing circumcision and to being critical of Israel, is antisemitic? Indications of a bigoted mindset? Hate speech?

Er no.

Further responses told me that I had got it wrong. If it were racism it would have been deleted. I said the comments weren't stand alone racist but yeah, indicated a racist mind-set. This was very very stupid of me apparently.

Still, the important thing from it, is I felt heard. People really wanted to listen and learn from my experience. (ha ha, no they didn't.)

A poster came onto this thread with some anti-semitic comments. People read them and yet they still hadn't seen racism.

Cote and Bertrand saying, 'All (later modified to most) Jews support Israel that is why they are not on the other side of the palestinian debate" is both wrong and unhelpful. I genuinely can't see why you want to polarise debate in that way.

OK.

So asking for advice hasn't worked.

How can I learn to avoid casual anti semitism? Because I am not anti Semitic, and if I say anything that suggests I am, it is out of ignorance, and I want to stop doing it.

I'm not going to rehash the whole thread.
I feel there have been some sweeping generalisations, maybe you don't.
I think we're approaching the OP from different perspectives.

"Seems there is a feeling that there is a Jewish "party line" towed by a majority of the Jewish population"

On, God, I'm going to say it again- sorry. Where?

Alot of generalisation though.
Seems there is a feeling that there is a Jewish "party line" towed by a majority of the Jewish population.

This is not the case outside of religious doctrine.

In my experience, debate is encouraged within the Jewish community.

"There are misjudged declarations on here which are bred of ignorance for sure."

Can you point to a couple?

There are misjudged declarations on here which are bred of ignorance for sure.
Blatent anti semitism, no, not as far as i can see.

Thank you, Larry. By your definition has there been anti semitism on this thread? I except the frankly bonkers "Zionists control the world" rant.

lisa - I agree with you re increase in antisemitism. Anti-Americanism and Islamophobia are also on the rise. The world is getting increasingly polarized and it is a scary time to live in, especially when you are in a minority targeted with such aggression. My sympathies

"In a time when as Jewish children in school we felt no prejudice... where we played out all hours with children of all nationalities happy and innocent together as kids . Most of my street's kids knew Jewish people enjoyed chicken soup for dinner as my mum would share it out liberally to my friends"

I went to school with a lot of Jewish girls, as lived in a place where Jews persecuted in Europe had fled to. As you say, we all played as kids, went to their homes and participated in their traditions etc. We are still close and get together regularly. Several of my parents' closest friends are Jewish couples who have lived near us since my childhood. Just wanted to reassure you that those days have not ended for everyone.

"Very recently a Jewish teacher in Marseille was attached with a meat cleaver"

I live in France and doubt if anyone here ignores these attacks that are very clearly antisemitic. When people asked for examples, I think they were asking for examples of casual antisemitism on MN.

When I went to the local synagogue twice to support friends who lost relatives, I was surprised to see the locked gates and armed men at the inner door, and that was about ten years ago. These days, it's not just Jewish gatherings/buildings - access was controlled at Xmas fairs in Nice and Monaco in December and armed police searched everyone's bags.

Again being against anti circumcision is not anti semitism

Again, people aren't saying it is.