should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

TheGoldenApples

I have read the full thread and am still confused. Probably more so than before reading.

I am a pretty liberal person. Very much live and let others live. Am not religious but the 'do unto others etc' is very relevant.

I would never intentionally cause offence to someone because of who or what they are. Cultural differences can make this tricky though.

Fwiw I have always found mn a liberal and informed place. Certainly educational. I am unaware of any antisemitism, casual or otherwise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Having read the thread I wouldn't know how to recognise the casual aspect. There are lots of allusions but no specifics. This worries me.

I don't know why I keep posting on this thread, but here goes. People keep asking for some anti-semitism 101 education, so in case anyone genuinely wants to understand and isn't just baiting, here goes. I will use circumcision as my example. Some, not all, anti-circumcision rhetoric comes across as anti-semitic to Jewish posters. This is because there's some historical background you may not be aware of. So here goes my explanation of that background.

To quote from my synagogue library's copy of 'The Covenant of Circumcision- New Perspectives on an Ancient Jewish Rite' : "Stories of Jews who died for the difference marked by circumcision are part of the general Jewish cultural repertoire. These stories range from the legendary martyred mothers of Maccabean times who knowingly invoked death by insisting on circumcising their sons, to recent memories from the Nazi era."

Those who describe circumcision as child abuse and who use emotive words like 'barbaric', 'mutilation', 'bloody', or who bring up the (very fringe and uncommon) metzitzah b'peh ritual are unwittingly playing into a long tradition of anti-semitic tropes around circumcision. As far back as the mediaeval era, depictions of Jews as 'foreskinne clippers', are common. These rumours were related to the famous Blood Libel, which says Jews want to take the blood of Christian children. We were supposedly so eager for children's suffering that fears Jews would kidnap Christian children to forceably circumcise them or take their blood were a common cause of pogroms. During riots against Jews it was very common for Jewish children to be taken away from their parents and raised as Christians, supposedly for their own good. The case of Edgardo Mortars, a Jewish boy kidnapped from his parents by the church in Italy in 1858 shows these incidents continued for hundreds of years. Indeed there is a group "Hidden Children if the Holocaust" composed of Jewish people who were saved during the killings but whose identity was hidden from them by their adoptive families and who only found out their origins as adults. When people talk about how Jewish parents are abusive or should not be allowed to circumcise their children, this sparks a real fear that their children would actually be taken away.

This painful history invests circumcision with a powerful cultural meaning distinct from its important and related religious role, which I can try to explain in a second post if wanted (sorry for the wall of text)...

Yes - it's your right. TBH = on Israeli threads, I see a lot more stereotyping coming from people who decide to label people who have concerns over Israel as anti semitic and pro terrorist. Not sure what label that is?

And a lot of people on those threads go out of the way to acknowledge that Israelis have a massive range of views on the issue. They highlight collaborative programs and also mention the atrocities Hamas commit.

I would hope I would pick up on people who stereotype groups. It's a classic way of othering and it's seen on the Internet all the time. MN included.

but as a Jewish woman i am sometimes shocked at the misrepresentation of a whole people

Yes, it's shit.

Look for it.
Seek and ye shall find.

Wade through the myriad of circumcision and Israel/Palestine threads.
Marvel at the ease with which posters lump all Jews in the same category of opinion.
Seriously, have a look with a new perspective.

Most of it is innocent, i truly don't think that MN is rife with anti semitism, but as a Jewish woman i am sometimes shocked at the misrepresentation of a whole people.
That's my take on things and my right to express it.

I think we've asked enough times how we can see this casual MN antisemetism that is apparently there.

This thread is mental. Theres been so many chances to educate and set down exactly what it is so in future more people can spot it and I'm still none the wiser. Maybe its me, who knows. I don't think I care anymore tbh

So if it's there but people can't see it because they don't want to see it, how can the people who are unable to see it challenge it?

A subjective metaphor coined by the creator of Shylock.
Aaa there's the rub.

I'm not suggesting, i'm stating!
If you want to see it, it's there.

If you want to see it, it's there

That's a loaded statement. Are you suggesting that people who can't see it don't want to see it?

It's akin to "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
If you want to see it, it's there.

Bertrand you said it in the post I quoted from you - that you hadn't seen etc anti Semitism so didn't think it existed . That is why I asked clarification . I don't know why you are so hostile and oppositional .

And to stoned Moses question I vote yes. But only after reading this thread . Perhaps I blissfully ignored it before .

Is there casual anti semitism on MN

I don't think there's a right answer here. TBH - compared to the abuse, othering, labelling and stereotyping other groups get on MN, I don't think that casual anti semitism is prevalent. Other groups on here get a hell of a lot of "anti - groupism".

If there is anti semitism, I hope it would be challenged. People do challenge - or rather mock - views like there is a Jewish control of the media. I am sure people would challenge stereotypes - such as "Fagin" type views. I've not heard some of the words on here before.

MN though is a reflection of the outside world - and anti Semitism is on the increase. I have no doubt there are people on here who hold anti-semitic views.

Bertrand, Was it you who counteracted an argument with "all my Jewish friends think x y z." ?
I think it was in reference to the tensions in Israel and Palestine.

Forgive me if it wasn't you, i'm making dinner and can't scroll through the whole thread.

Bertrand, to answer your question, no i wouldn't be shocked in your situation.
I would be eager to clarify my position and disgruntled that my post had been misinterpreted.
In the words of a famous philosopher (ScottishMummy if i remember correctly!), "words on a screen".

You can come across as being agressive in some posts and it is tempting to misunderstand your tone.

I am admitedly becoming way too over invested in this thread but can i say this discussion is rapidly becoming futile?
Round and round in circles.
Let's have a vote on the original OP.

Is there casual anti semitism on MN?
(Let's emphasise the "casual").

In my opinion, yes.

Next!

StonedMoses- wouldn't you be shocked if you had posted what you thought was a friendly sympathetic message, and it came over as being a denial that anti semitism exists?

Shocked? Seriously?
Lord above!

"Bertrand - I would have thought that despite my explanations and examples of how anti Semitism is visibly and tangibly on the rise - as experienced by my family - that you still could not "see" that it is so . I was trying to get confirmation that you were not one of throes people that until you physically see something yourself you will not accept its truth"

Gosh. Wow. So almost the exact opposite of what I actually said. Not sure where to go from there, frankly. I feel rather shocked.

Bertrand - I would have thought that despite my explanations and examples of how anti Semitism is visibly and tangibly on the rise - as experienced by my family - that you still could not "see" that it is so . I was trying to get confirmation that you were not one of throes people that until you physically see something yourself you will not accept its truth

I am assuming that you did not mean to say that I am in favour of a pogrom

Bert, not only did I not mean to say it, I didn't say it. You do not need my confirmation, all you need to do is read my post.

"Thank you for your explanation. It is easy to misunderstand sometimes where different people are responding to different parts of a thread"

So if I hadn't come back to explain, what would you have thought?

I feel there is sometimes an anti Jew undertone on MN.
(Note that i say that i as an individual feel this.)

If i feel "wronged" then am i right to feel wronged?

It doesn't upset me, i don't lose sleep over it.

Maybe i'm a tad oversensitive and am looking for something that isn't there.

There's a thread at the moment where the OP has been fleeced by an Israeli.
I don't think the nationality has any relevance to the situation and do question the motives for mentioning it.
Maybe i'm paranoid but i can't help thinking that a certain number of people will be thinking "Israeli? Doesn't surprise me.".

Again i stress that this is my perception and i'm probably way off the mark but when you go through life tarred with so many negative stereotypes it's sometimes hard to give the benefiut of the doubt.

And no, i shan't link to the thread out of respect for the OP.

Thank you for your explanation. It is easy to misunderstand sometimes where different people are responding to different parts of a thread .

Lisalisa- I am sadly aware that anti semitism is real and increasing in real life. My impression was that this thread was about casual anti semitism on Mumsnet.

You seem to be taking issue with my post. I was just surprised that there was a time in the UK where there was no anti semitism and I was wondering whether your parents protected you from it. And I thought long and hard about using "embattled" but it was the feeling I got from your post..