should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

What it boils down to, I believe, is that op saw one anti-semitic comment on one thread that was deleted fairly quickly.

Others, including myself have said there have been more than that one comment in the past.

They have been deleted however.

I agree that there are some horrid things said about gypsey/traveller communities. Again the things I have seen have been challenged and deleted.

It isn't a competition of who has the most prejudiced or racist things thrown at them.

None of it should be tolerated full stop.

I too would be interested to see any links to antisemitic posts on MN. I haven't seen any but then I might not realise if I did, I had no idea that "Bec" could be an insult. I know a few Beckys / Becs / Beccas and I have no idea whether they're Jewish or not tbh. So it kind of means "Princess" then? And some might see it as an insult and/or antisemitic, and others might not? Glad that's clear then

There is always a chance that people might use such terms without realising the connotations - a similar example would be a recent thread this week where the OP used "Moron", was told it was disablist, understood the explanation and apologised, MN edited the thread title. Job done.

Adding my voice to those who are saying that being anti-circumcision does not automatically mean being antisemitic, but TBH, I don't think that's what the OP had an issue with, but could be wrong as I got more confused as the thread went on.

I think this thread is one example of why Mumsnet are not too keen on taats.

What it boils down to, I believe, is that op saw one anti-semitic comment on one thread that was deleted fairly quickly.

It seems a bit of a leap to want to discuss the "casual antisemitism on Mumsnet" off the back of that.

And, what BIWI said.

Purple I didn't see your post. And mine wasn't sneery, it was stating how I saw things when I was at school. Bec was a term only used by Jewish girls about Jewish girls (I should say it was a girls' school) and it was they who were sneery about coming from Edgware, a place that had never been on my radar prior to that. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it wasn't me who said it at the time. What I am saying is that in my experience Bec is a term only used by Jewish people (and I'm not the only person to have said that on this thread) so it's hard for me to define it as being anti-Semitic. It was pretty snobby for sure.

I agree that anti-Semetism is in the rise in Britain but not on MN. I also agree with a pp with the bile that is regularly slung at the gypsy/traveller community on MN (and often not deleted) is far more prevalent and of concern.

"This could go on all day."

Well, I won't be adding to it. Can't be doing with the nudges and winks and if we told you you wouldn't understand, and don't talk to her she's horrid.

Anti semitism, racism and all the other similar hideous manifestations of inhumanity need to have bright spotlights shone on them. It needs to be dragged out into the open and shown up for the viciousness it is. Not this covert hinting.

I thought BertrandRussell was merely trying to unravel confusing posts.

This could go on all day. The fact that anti semitism exists in society is undeniable, surely? As MN users are a representation of the rest of society, there will be users who hold anti Semitic views. I don't think these are always blatant or overt, but they definitely exist.

I can only remember a few instances where posts/comments have been deleted when they have obviously been posted to stir up hatred (I remember one about Jewish bankers) but there are definitely occasions where people skirt under the radar so to speak, and reveal an anti-Jew sentiment (for want of a better expression), or yes, hide under anti-Israel sentiment. Agree these are not always obvious to non Jews, but I don't see how people can possibly deny the existence of anti semitism.

If you want an example of my last sentence "she was from Edgware which seemed to be a Bec stamping ground, there and Brent Cross shopping centre).Who said it? That's right, other Jewish girls" from the post after my earlier one, to me, contains a distinct sneery tone with its talk of stamping grounds and patronising rhetorical questions. There's no point in flagging it as an anti Semitic post in need of deletion, but to me personally, I find it mildly offensive. That's just one post amongst very many where no doubt people who aren't Jewish, or of Jewish heritage etc, would deny anti semitism, but it's there, and previous personal experience makes me pick up on it. It's not all police and guards at synagogues, it's things that are regarded as "minor" and dismissed or denied by others.

I think it's important that Jewish people are allowed to raise concerns without fearing they will be dismissed, and their experiences should be acknowledged, as it is part of the bigger picture.

Gawd I haven't heard 'beck' since I was a teenager and going to house parties in Highgate. Back then it was mostly Jewish kids who used it. How times have changed.

FWIW antisemitism is measurably on the rise in Europe, thanks to a coalition of European left-wing anti-Zionism and Islamism.

Meh, for some unknown reason, you are deliberately not understanding what I said.

OK, Bertrand, you're right. There is no anti-semitism in the world anymore: When people have said they've seen it they are lying. The statistics that point to a rise are mistaken. The attacks on European Jews haven't happened. French Jews are worried about nothing.

I thought the thread was about anti-semitism on MN? Anti-semitic in the wider world is a whole other ballgame...

Helmet I don't agree with everything you say on this thread but you're being hectored by Bertrand, which is her usual modus operandi so it might be better not to engage because really, who can be arsed to have their opinions nit picked at and undermined? That does not a decent discussion make

OK then. Saying that Jews are behind ISIS is not anti Semitic. Who knew?

FFS, I said the comments alone were not directly anti-semitic.

What are you really trying to say here? That I was mistaken?

OK, Bertrand, you're right. There is no anti-semitism in the world anymore: When people have said they've seen it they are lying. The statistics that point to a rise are mistaken. The attacks on European Jews haven't happened. French Jews are worried about nothing.

Its just a load of over-sensitive Jews shutting down criticism about circumcision and Israel.

Happy now?

Helmet, it's baffling because I said I thought that sounded anti Semitic to me and asked what happened when you reported it, but you said you didn't report it because you didn't think it was anti Semitic.............

Oh and I'm not talking about circumcision or Israel either when seeing it.

Another one here who hasnt spotted any anti-semitism. Not supporting Israel's actions does not make you anti Semitic, and neither does disliking circumcision. Being against circumcision especially - you could just as easily construe it as being anti Muslim or American.

Just because you haven't seen it it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I have sent it in the past and reported it and it has been deleted.

Anti semitism is on the rise so as a 'part of society' it will occasionally occur on here.

As long as it is dealt with or posters are pulled up for what they say, then not sure what else can be done.

There was a thread where a poster said her daughters best friend told her that Isis were all Jews etc etc. the usual conspiracy shit. At least two or three posters thought op was over the top in her worry. They said this kind of thinking is widespread, no big deal.

This is what I said, Bertrand. I fail to understand why this is so baffling to you, and why, from this, another poster decided that I was suggesting criticism of circumcision was antisemitism...

Another one here who hasnt spotted any anti-semitism. Not supporting Israel's actions does not make you anti Semitic, and neither does disliking circumcision. Being against circumcision especially - you could just as easily construe it as being anti Muslim or American.

"People won't acknowledge that maybe Jews are better placed to identify antisemitism than them. Just like people asking over and over for specific, precise examples of antisemitism on mumsnet - what, so they can be picked apart and defended, deemed harmless? Antisemitism is frequently insidious and micro-aggression based, like many instances of racism."

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that Jews are better placed to identify anti semitism than I am. That is why I asked for examples, so I can say "oh, sorry-I didn't realize- I won't do that again"

I've noticed some very barbed, snidey comments on the anti-circumcision threads which crop up, which I suppose could be construed as anti-semitic by some.

(As an aside, its odd that MN is literally the only place I ever come to where male circumcision is such a huge issue...)

As for Israel threads - well, it all comes out there, doesn't it? Always the potential for a nasty tone to those debates and thus has it ever been.

In general, though, I don't find MN anti-semitic at all. I'm far more troubled by the anti-Traveller sentiment I've encountered here, which I dont personally think MNHQ deals with well.

MN-ers are a cross section of society, though, so you are going to get racists and idiots. Guess we just have to report it when we see it and hope MNHQ comment or delete....

I have never seen anti semitic comment on here. Anti circumcision, yes indeed. That's not the same thing.

"What- saying that some Zionists use accusations of antisemitiam to shut down debates about Israeli government policy? Are you saying that never happens?"

Of course it happens. But it was a very defensive response, offered up almost as a refutation of my statement that for some anti-Zionists, their politics are a safe place to nurture underlying antisemitism. #notallantizionists etc. I don't think either of these cancel out the other, but it's exactly that "well they did that"/"they said that" that characterises so much of Western dialogue on Israel/Palestine, on both sides. I say Western - I really mean European, not sure whether the US takes a more nuanced view or just has a different majority standpoint but with the same dogma.

As a relevant aside, I'm never quite clear what people mean by declaring themselves Zionist or anti-Zionist - I think the definitions have evolved more for some than for others. You do realise there are Zionists passionately opposed to Israel's foreign policy, right?

I think also that the belief that antisemitism and "anti-Zionism" are so easily separable ignores the massive relevance of Israel for Jews in the diaspora. There was a study recently showing that 90-odd% of British Jews identified with Israel. That's a much bigger deal than many religious practices associated with Judaism!
People won't acknowledge that maybe Jews are better placed to identify antisemitism than them. Just like people asking over and over for specific, precise examples of antisemitism on mumsnet - what, so they can be picked apart and defended, deemed harmless? Antisemitism is frequently insidious and micro-aggression based, like many instances of racism.

As I said earlier, I haven't particularly noticed more than a small number of subtle antisemitic slurs on MN, and I've been here for some time (although admittedly not reading it all!). But I find the rush to deny it exists here rather bizarre to watch.

Thus is a blatant, and rather pointless, TAAT, so why are MN allowing it to stand? Oh, and I know what a Bec is, I learnt it at school when a new girl started and it was said 'she's such a Bec' (she was from Edgware which seemed to be a Bec stamping ground, there and Brent Cross shopping centre).Who said it? That's right, other Jewish girls. I'd never heard it before (not being Jewish) and havent heard it since leaving school.

In a general sense anti-semitism is certainly on the rise, no doubt because some idiots can't differentiate between Jews and the actions of the Israeli state. I was shocked to recently see that the greeters outside the synagogue on my mum's road (naice genteel London suburb) were wearing stab/bullet proof vests. Apparently the norm these days, though it certainly wasn't when I was living at home 20 years ago.

But I don't see it on MN.

I've not read the full thread or indeed the original thread but going to offer up an opinion anyway! My husband is from a Jewish family and since we've been together I've become much more aware of (and often shocked by ) casual anti-semitism in a way I wasn't before.

I was brought up by a very liberal dad who thought me to challenge antisemitism/sexism/racism/homophobia/bigotry wherever I find it. So I would urge others to do likewise, on mumsnet or elsewhere.

Purple, you've summed up my views pretty perfectly.

Helmet - I did read what you said. But I'm glad you clarified that you were indeed talking about those with anti-Semitic viewpoints. I struggle to see how statements that indicate an anti-Semitic mindset, and that suggest Jewish people deserve suffering because of the actions of Israel in Gaza, aren't anti-Semitic in a pretty direct way.

Where do you draw a line between 'direct' and 'indirect' anti-Semitism? I'd say the latter is more dangerous, myself.