Primary school admissions, 'super size' classrooms and 'titan' schools - what do you think?

Schools in this London borough are almost all 4 form entry or about to become so. Although the local authority has been funded by central government to increase the number of classrooms in each school there is no provision made for larger halls, increased number of ICT suites, specialist teaching areas or small rooms for group teaching. At the same time, of course, playground space has stayed the same if the school is lucky, or, more usually decreased. I retired early because I did not want to lead a school of 840 (plus 52 nursery) pupils in a building that was too small.

"I hadn't realised that the Local Authority is NOT ALLOWED to build new schools."

This isn't the whole truth.

This is lifted from another thread, and is a better reflection of the situation: which is that LAs can open new schools, but the circumstances under which they do so are limited.

"LAs can still create additional places at existing schools. They can also identify the need for a new school, provide the site and meet the associated capital and pre/post opening costs. However the presumption is that the school will be a free school so the LA must seek proposals from bodies interested in establishing the new school. So LAs can still create school places, they just can't run the resulting school unless no-one else is willing to do so."

What it comes down to is that some councils are much better performing than others (generally) and some places have more pressure on school places than others.

Bungo is spot on, by the way.

DD was at a very large primary school in the 1990s in South London, and it was substantially better than the prep school she was pulled out of, as the quality of teachers was frankly a lot higher, and there was more enrichment as the number of pupils was high enough to organise special programmes. Her maths in particular came on a treat. I think there's such a thing as economy of scale BUT it needs an absolutely fabulous head who really manages well and is still available to parents (and understands them and their children).

Our local school is 3 form entry but its become an academy by merging with 3 other schools. It feels like the head waltzes in and out and compares the schools all the time. She is very into facts and figures and really doesn't seem to know the kids (how can she?!).

I miss it being a proper local community school, but the teachers are fab.

Our school is coming up to 800 pupils, and will get there soon when it becomes permanent 4 form entry. It's been less of a problem than I expected, but I think my choice would be 2-3 form entry.

The lack of local planning of schools makes me crazy. The nonsense going on in our area.... first we got a new Catholic school which imports children from elsewhere while kids from our borough have to travel out. Now we have a new 'local' secondary which will be built in the next borough, because all the available land locally is being sold off for luxury housing developments (more children, fewer school places).

From the perspective of a teacher,with the best will in the world, a class size of over 30 children is just too many children for any teacher no matter how skilled they may be;to really get to know let alone prepare all the numerous resources needed on a daily basis.
In a large school there tends to be numerous levels of non class based staff, I do not believe that a secondary school model can ever be in the interest of young children; children flourish in secure familiar settings where good relationships flourish.

My local primaries are reasonable and we (hopefully) should get what we want. But

My ten penn'orth is that it was a major mistake taking control of schools and control of establishing new schools away from local councils. Ok so local councils have problems, but they are at least local and in theory anyone can choose to get more closely involved with them. They're now in the tricky position of having a responsibility to provide places while having no power whatsoever to do so. No one else has the responsibility to provide places. It is daft to separate the two, at least, whatever you think of councils.

Central government is miles away and does not have a clue what's going on in most parts of the country (doesn't care much either, as long as it can take what it wants and give as little back as possible).

My Dd is in a popular primary in Scotland with a strict catchment area.
They had to squeeze two primary one classes into one shared classroom due to the lack of space.

I am annoyed at the lack of provisions for updating school buildings but at the same time Dd was lucky to have a wonderful p1 teacher who could have did her job out of a garden shed and it would have made no difference!

But 30odd primary 1s in one room is not ideal at all.

I have no problem at all with larger schools, because I know there are lots of ways to manage groups and maintain an intimate family feel, if that is what you want.

I do however have an enormous problem with schools have to expand constantly within a fixed plot, taking away their outside space, or, as in the case of my daughter's school, having a "field" that was a 15 minute walk crossing a busy road to get to.

I do also have a problem with class sizes exceeding 30. There is no way on earth a teacher can be expected to provide the best teaching for each child in classes of that size. In my mind, even 30 is pushing it. We spent some time living in Scotland when the infant class target of 18 was being tried, and the difference was amazing. Up to about 25 is still great, but over 30, just not fair on either the teacher or the children.

Should add it's even worse come secondary

Here all primaries are over subscribed but a lot do not even have live nearest as a high criteria I would say at least 30% live over 2 miles away (so there is other primary schools but they choose to travel and still get place

Where local children do struggle to get place at nearest so they travel as allocated further away which can then fill those schools

DS school took bulge class last year but can't take another all schools are full and no one can take another class so that means travel for 4/5 year olds

We aren't in the UK at the moment and our DC are in a school system where the smallest primary school is 600+. Despite our fears (having moved them from an expanding 1 form entry school), they both love having the benefits that a big school offers, such as better facilities (large hall with proper auditorium facilities; multiple large sports halls) and the opportunities for wide and differing social circles.

BUT they are in small classes: DD is one of 18, DS is one of 20 (22 is considered big here), and this makes all the difference, I think. They get the security and attention of being a big fish in a small pond along with having a huge ocean to swim in too. In fact, this is the model that many independent schools have been pushing for many years, isn't it....?

New school opened here 2 years ago. It was built 15 years after the estate was started. And had to be an extension of a existing school, situated miles away. It shares a headteacher. Both schools are excellent. I can't see a problem with large primaries on one site if they are properly built with adequate playground space suitable for that number of children. You could have several dining halls for example, and dedicated play space for each year group. My fear is that by providing large schools it will be seen as a way of saving cash and done on the cheap

steppemum surely it depends on the TA? My DD is taught by a teacher with about 5 years experience and a TA who has a degree in education and 10 years experience. They are both, in my limited experience excellent on the whole. The younger DD is not so fortunate, being taught by an NQT who has the most appalling general knowledge but who seems to have a good grasp of what my DD is like and what makes her tick.

On t quite a titan primary, but our 3 form intake primary was amazing. The head was in the playground morning and afternoon, and knew most of the kids by name. Large doesn't need to be inpersonal, with the right leadership team. It was an amazing school, and I'm sorry we relocated. When we return home, we won't get back in, as their places were snapped up in less than a week.

BUT, we need to be thinking what happens to these primaries when this bulge finishes. Our old town is heading for a secondary melt down. Can primaries be built (2 next to each other??) with the aim of easy conversion to a secondary? Is this even possible?

Why are most primaries one story?

We also need to focus on training and keeping the best of the teachers, not alienating them.

I think the bigger school actually has lots of benefits

So do I. Dd is at a 3 form entry primary school and they have lots of specialist teaching (Art, PE and French) and great facilities. Dd has friends not only in her class but across the year group. If there are any friendship issues there are lots of other people to play with.

She used to attend a 1 form entry school, it got quite cliquey in the class especially the girls. And there's nowhere to go if that happens!

My children are at a 2 form entry primary school in London, which has an expansion site a short distance away that is 4 form entry. For admissions they're treated as 2 separate schools, but technically they are a single school, and have over 1000 pupils (or will do, once all years in the expansion site have been filled - currently only up to year 3).

It actually works really well across both sites. On the whole parents are very positive about how it's all working. When I applied for my DS1's school place, the two sites were positions 1 and 2 on our form - it was great to have the expansion site as back up, since there are virtually no non-sibling places at the original site. Both sites also operate the very sensible policy of supervision from 8.40am (as well as breakfast and afterschool clubs) - as soon as the gate is unlocked. So for parents having to get to another school, it would just about be possible if you dropped at our school on the dot of gate-opening-time.

It's all very well saying that a good teacher with a well behaved class could teach a class of 40, but that would represent a huge increase in workload in terms of marking and paperwork.

With large classes, teachers can't get to know the kids as well either.

It's not just about the actual classroom management.

So what I have just described as happening in Islington is, in my view a misallocation of resources, where the location of a new, free School was determined against local council wishes, not put where there is a growing issue of place shortage, but put in an area of the Borough without a shortage.

I live in Islington. In south Islington there has been a significant increase in reception age children. So far the Borough has been able to respond by expanding existing schools, choosing to expand only schools which were either Ofsted "outstanding" or "good". However it has been difficult for the Borough to find the money and it has put pressure on other budgets. Meanwhile in North Islington, where there is capacity available in local schools to expand them - one in particular is "outstanding" and could be expanded at low cost - a legacy of past falling school rolls when schools were larger in the past, and were reduced in size this will not happen.

This is because a Free School has been established at very large cost to the taxpayer (Whitehall Park School) - by the time it is finished an existing building will have been demolished, and a new school built. This has created a local surplus of places - the school which has been open two years and so should have 120 pupils now only has 74 - Islington did ask for the new Free School to be built in the centre of the Borough and offered a site, but this was refused by the for profit Company, Bellevue Ltd which "sponsored" the school, who preferred the site it is now on. (Sponsorship by the way means they control it, they do not put any money in, that all comes from the taxpayer, but they do get to sell services to the school)

dd1 is in a class of 36
the PAN for the school is 35, and all KS2 classes are 35 (dd1's is 36 due to appeal), with KS1 children taught in mixed year groups. This was our first choice school.

the school does appear to have and make good use of excellent TA provision to do lots of small group teaching, and it doesn't appear to have adverse affected things from the point of view of OFSTED or achievement. The classrooms can feel a little tight, but they have adequate computers, music rooms etc and lots of outside space including woodland and an allotment.

Locally, I could have opted for a school with a PAN of 20, or one with 60 (taught in two forms of 30) , but class size is such a small part of the overall picture that I found it was like comparing apples with oranges.