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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeG0es · 18/11/2015 10:08

And I also agree with Sparkling that the bunfights are tedious. I have learnt a lot from trans threads on MN but the speed and ferocity of them dramatically dilutes their effectiveness.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 10:06

Not everyone uses most active though. I look at Feminism Chat, Chat and AIBU with the occasional foray into The Litter Tray, Telly Addicts, Site Stuff and Food.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 10:04

We generally get several people on each thread saying that they were always pro-trans without really thinking through the ramifications but have had their eyes opened.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeG0es · 18/11/2015 10:03

*"I think it's important to have these conversations on parts of the boards where people who aren't aware of the issues might actually see it."

While I agree with Cote on this point I don't think it precludes the use of a separate topic as the topic would appear in Most Active by default. People are unlikely to seek out and hide the topic unless they have read some of the threads. If they have done that they may be either drawn to engage or decide it's not for them, in which case having thread after thread appear in front if them is unlikely to change their mind.

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 09:57

That's one person Cote.

I am thinking there are probably also some who see a trans thread title and maybe think 'ooh I could learn something here' then start reading and the bunfight ensues and they just think Hmm.

BeyondThirty · 18/11/2015 09:52

Mn (and facebook!) need to invent a 'hide all threads containing x' function, so any posters who are trans-ed out can hide all threads containing that word. (And on facebook i can then hide all 'news' posts containing the word 'kardashian')

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 09:46

Sparkling - I can only assume that you have x-posted with Mythical, whose post is evidence that you are wrong.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 09:40

It's like anything else on Chat or AIBU - if you don't want to read it don't click on it or hide it.

BeyondThirty · 18/11/2015 09:36

Despite the suggestion for two boards being mine, i agree with queen too. I just meant that if one trans topic were created, it couldnt really contain all of the massively contradicting threads by both pro and anti 'gender-is-a-real-thing' without turning into a massive bunfight

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 09:30

They don't serve a purpose when most a lot of posters see a trans thread title roll their eyes because it's like Groundhog Day and hide the thread straight away.

Not everyone wants or need their awareness raised.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 09:28

On every trans thread, several MNers become aware of the issues and the dangers of letting transactivists continue to set the agenda and shape policy. It is important that we continue to raise awareness on this subject, especially since MN is one of a vanishingly small number of places left on the internet where such concerns can be voiced without being deleted for 'transphobia'.

One of these was me. I always thought I was a LibFem, in the main. I'm in my 60s now and had been happy to pass the baton on to the next generation after my activism in the 60s and 70s. The fight for Women's Liberation (as I once called it) is not yet won and I will yield not one inch to any other group until it is. I was slumbering but now I'm awake. And I'm angry.

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 09:10

"I think it's important to have these conversations on parts of the boards where people who aren't aware of the issues might actually see it."

I agree. Most of us started out with live-and-let-live, poor-dears-let-them-say-what-they-want views on this topic, before we realised the consequences of allowing the redefinition and reduction to absurdity of the word 'woman' to include adult human males who 'feel like' women.

These threads need to be on public areas of MN with high traffic such as AIBU and Chat because they serve a purpose: On every trans thread, several MNers become aware of the issues and the dangers of letting transactivists continue to set the agenda and shape policy. It is important that we continue to raise awareness on this subject, especially since MN is one of a vanishingly small number of places left on the internet where such concerns can be voiced without being deleted for 'transphobia'.

ThatIsNachoCheese · 18/11/2015 08:35

Oh yes please could there be a topic, so I can hide the bloody thing and don't have to sit, open mouthed, at all the utter bullshit?

I take the opinion to live and let live. Transgender people certainly aren't hurting me. I don't want to be referred to as a Cis woman, but I've only ever seen it on those bloody threads and I'm quite big enough to report and tell people I'm not a Cis woman, just a woman thank you.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 08:30

I would not be offended by trans people and their allies using real as a modifier for woman, I think they would be offended by us using it though.

IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou · 18/11/2015 08:27

Maybe if instead of "Cis" they used "Real" people wouldn't be offended?

Or we could refer to people as "Caitlin Jenner (XY)" or "the penis equipped woman, Caitlin Jenner?

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 08:10

That's just having your cake and eating it too. Getting taken seriously at work (i.e. perceived to be a man) and getting to wear pretty dresses at the weekend. I find it highly insulting that we are expected to view these people as women and use female pronouns.

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 08:08

You see from the title that it's about trans and you just know how it's going to go because they always end up the same. Having them not appear in Active at all because you have the topic hidden would be good.

Ubik1 · 18/11/2015 08:01

Apparently you can be 'Demi-gender' now.
Sometime you are a man (at work for example) other times you are a woman.

Keeps everyone on their toes...

OneMoreCasualty · 18/11/2015 08:00

In what way a target, Dark?

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark · 18/11/2015 07:53

The problem is QueenStromba, that every single thread about the issues gets me-railed. And the sheer amount of threads recently (and I don't doubt for a second that a) lots of them are by the same person b) many are being started to take the piss out of what has frankly become a totally disproportionate amount of threads and MN energy) are having the opposite effect of what the people starting them want.

I started off with a disinterested empathy. My stance now couldn't be further from that.

MN risks becoming a target for anti-trans stuff at worst, and at best an utter laughing stock.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 07:49

Yep, you can mostly tell the ones that are going to be about trans by the thread title - takes seconds to click on it and hide it if you never want to see it again.

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 07:47

Hide Thread is a great feature.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 07:45

I'm a regular on these threads but I wouldn't use a trans topic as I think it's important to have these conversations on parts of the boards where people who aren't aware of the issues might actually see it. Awareness raising is very important as most people have no idea how much of a threat transgenderism is to women's rights.

BrendaandEddie · 18/11/2015 07:39

this is typical mumsnet lifecycle.
Something becomes more prominent in news

everyone talks about it.
People get the hump.
they demand a topic
Much deliberation
they get a topic
they still put everything in CHAT or AIBU

Same old #oldtimer

DixieNormas · 18/11/2015 07:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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