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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 18:01

If I couldn't tell that a person was male and they didn't attack me or leer at me then it would be fine. Due to my history of being raped in a bathroom, I would probably have a panic attack if I was somewhere on my own and someone identifiably male walked in.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:56

Not everyone agrees that post-ops should be in the women's facilities though. I would be triggered by someone who is obviously male being in a space where I am vulnerable and not expecting men to be and, as you say, I would have no way of knowing if they still had their penis.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 17:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:25

In this brave new world a man can become a woman without so much as putting on some lipstick.

Queenbean · 18/11/2015 17:16

I agree about the beard, and also if they have no plans to get rid of their penis I find that difficult to grasp how they can still identify as female

Maryz · 18/11/2015 17:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:13

If everyone could be trusted to use the appropriate facilities for their sex then that wouldn't happen.

BubsandMoo · 18/11/2015 17:09

If one presumes that someone is a transwoman based on a masculine/androgynous appearance however then you risk falsely identifying women. I think at least twice on these recent threads there have been women who have experienced being asked to leave toilets etc because they don't appear feminine.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:05

A lot of transwomen are really obvious - there are some that still have full beards. I wouldn't ask them to leave though, I'd leave.

Maryz · 18/11/2015 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 16:49

Paris Lees is the only transwoman I can think of that I really wouldn't be able to tell by voice or physicality (opinions in the press on the other hand).

BubsandMoo · 18/11/2015 16:47

Pressed send and then phone crashed! Meant to soften that post.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 16:41

Because nobody can tell women and transwomen apart? Come on.

Exactly, and anyone who thinks differently is either deluding themselves or not very observant.

BubsandMoo · 18/11/2015 16:36

Well, actually Cote it's not always obvious. Particularly with highly feminine-presenting transwomen, or women with a masculine or androgynous look, it's not always going to be obvious to the casual observer what sex someone is.

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 16:20

"If a transwoman is presenting and acting as a woman in a woman only place such as a changing room, no-one is likely to object because they won't know."

Because nobody can tell women and transwomen apart? Come on.

Maryz · 18/11/2015 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 18/11/2015 15:14

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 15:11

The problem is that at the moment women can and do react to men in what should be female only spaces by e.g. running away, getting help or asking them to leave. Now we are being told that we have to welcome males into our spaces and that if we run away, try and get help or ask them to leave then we are being bigoted and transphobic. Letting in any males (i.e. transwomen) means letting in all males.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 14:58

Rape victims, for example, need safe spaces to discuss and come to terms with what happened to them. They may well feel unsafe and unable to talk properly if there is someone with a penis in the room listening.

VashtaNerada · 18/11/2015 14:57

Because I don't feel transwomen are a threat Mythical. Anyway, I've got to stop posting on MN and do some work!

Aginghippiechick · 18/11/2015 14:50

Mythicalkings, why would you feel threatened? Why would you feel more threatened by a man that is presenting and acting and being a woman than a woman born that way? Are you sure you could always tell?? Violent men are not going to be dissuaded by a woman only sign if intent on doing harm. Violent women aren't either. Spaces are only as safe as the people in them.

Aginghippiechick · 18/11/2015 14:44

Personally I believe the term ciswoman or cisman has no place outside of psychology/sociology academic discussions. It is being used as a pejorative, I am a woman, I identify as a woman, I have no desire or need to be anything else. But now i see the cis prefix being used in the same way gay, lez, poofta etc were used before, as an insult or way to marginalise a group. If someone identifies and presents as a woman or man then you refer to them accordingly. The biology aspect is relevant in medical situations, dating and the more complicated prison/hosital wards issue. Outside of that why does anyone care what's in someone elses pants? It is no-one business.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 14:41

If you understand Vashta why would you want to impose trans women into spaces and make women feel unsafe.

Women have a right to women only spaces and people with penises have no place in them.

VashtaNerada · 18/11/2015 14:28

I do understand concerns about female spaces and I think there's a conversation to be had, it's very hard when feelings are so strong on both sides. I personally have never felt at threat from a trans person in a female-only space. I don't speak for all women or all trans people, just saying how I feel personally.