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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
fusionconfusion · 19/11/2015 09:59

I was explaining all of this to my husband last night. We have three boys. It scares me that they are growing up in a world where this kind of shit is even possible..

One of mine loves (among many other things) pink sparkly shit and My Little Pony. He's nearly 7. The idea that if society goes with the notion that transgenderism-is-a-real-thing-in-the-world this could logically and feasibly be shaped into a story of him being trapped in the "wrong body" requiring therapy and perhaps even surgery is just.. terrifying.

The idea my small boy, instead of just being allowed to be a BOY who loves pink sparkly shit and My Little Pony would be influenced by a societal agenda to make gender such a solid, immutable, biological "reality", complete with narratives about "cislesbians" being bigoted for not accepting the penis can be "female"..

It's a dystopian headfuck, isn't it?

Hullygully · 19/11/2015 09:43

It all seems quite simple to me.

It's a shame if someone feels they are in the "wrong body," or wants to chop their limbs off, or starve themselves to death et al other dysphorias, but IF YOU HAVE A PENIS YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN.

Indeed, even if you chop it off and have a pretend vagina, YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN.

I will call you a "GenderWoman" in so far as you are drawn to a construct, but that's as far as it goes.

Dysphorics (is that a word?) need to create a new way and space and not attempt to colonise our hard won space and tell us what we are and what we can and cannot say to suit their agenda.

Ubik1 · 18/11/2015 21:53

I was just reflecting on what an utter nightmare it must be moderating these threads Confused

HermioneWeasley · 18/11/2015 21:31

flora have MNHQ deleted "penis is male" comments? That's mad.

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 21:21

"To read about Lila Perry or Tara Hudson and then not be allowed to say 'that person is male' is a massive, dangerous headfuck. Obviously misgendering is sometimes done just to be rude about someone but sometimes there is an important reason for not going along with someone's wishes to be referred to as female."

That is not misgendering, though.

Misgendering is when a transwoman wishes to be referred to as "she" and people keep calling her "he".

Saying that a transwoman is male is not misgendering. It is a statement of fact. Female/male are about sex, not gender. They are biological definitions that refer to belonging to the sex that can make eggs/ova and bear young, or the sex that can make sperm.

slugseatlettuce · 18/11/2015 20:49

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 18/11/2015 20:43

I was hoping MNHQ might comment on deletions of "penis is male" comments. I can tolerate the misgendering rule even though I don't agree with it but being unable to state that a person with a person is a man is a step too far.

In all these discussions it is clear there is no point in giving any ground to transactivists. Simply calling a transpeep "she" escalates quickly to "transwomen are women, bigot, and lesbians who don't want dick are bigoted vagina-fetishists".

HermioneWeasley · 18/11/2015 20:33

plenty I agree.

Saying that a TW is male is a fact - we shouldn't be deleted for stating facts. I will use people's preferred pronouns and names, but I won't pretend black is white.

Obviously when engaging with individuals I will try to avoid offence, but ultimately if a TW asked me straight out "do you think I am really a man/male" I wouldn't lie.

"Woman" is not a feeling it an identity, it is a biological reality. I'm on day one of a heavy period. I had to wipe blood off the cubicle floor at work today as its so heavy - just blood and clots falling out of me. That's one of the realities of being a woman.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 18/11/2015 20:20

I agree that deliberate misgendering of people posting on MN should be deleted as a personal attack, whether he / she or cis.

I'm not so sure that should automatically extend to people in the public eye. It's vitally important for women's safety and wellbeing that we are able to identify male people, especially when they are campaigning to access female spaces. To read about Lila Perry or Tara Hudson and then not be allowed to say 'that person is male' is a massive, dangerous headfuck. Obviously misgendering is sometimes done just to be rude about someone but sometimes there is an important reason for not going along with someone's wishes to be referred to as female. I would hope MNHQ would use their judgement in this area and not just delete every instance of misgendering.

One of the deletions on a recent thread was something like 'a human with a penis is not female'. If things like that are being deleted it becomes very hard to have these discussions.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 19:52

Sounds like sis.

TracyBarlow · 18/11/2015 19:43

May I ask a technical question please? Is cis pronounced with a hard 'c' or a soft 'c'. I've never heard it outside of MN, I don't think.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:38

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Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:36

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 19:34

You're confusing femininity with pornified caricature of femininity.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:32

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kua · 18/11/2015 19:24

Ego I've noticed that when you are queried on a comment you allude to negative posts that you have seen but of which you never reference.

ArcheryAnnie · 18/11/2015 19:23

Oh, certainly, Ego, when I see it and when I know them to be false and damaging.

I presume you will do the same about people posting false and damaging generalisations of gender-critical women and transwomen?

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:00

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ArcheryAnnie · 18/11/2015 18:56

Then may I suggest, Ego, you don't post generalisations about what "transwomen find" if what you mean is "I find"?

I'd like to live my life, too, without having to deal with my safety, privacy and ability to politically organise as a woman under constant attack, but I am not being given that option.

On the thread in general - I've said this before, but Mumsnet has been way, way, way ahead of the game in allowing all sides of this discussion to take place. This is in contrast to many other sites, which impose groupthink on the posters. Even when a thread is full of what I consider to be absolute nonsense, I remain incredibly grateful to Mumsnet that they've given us this space. Do I agree with every pronouncement they've made on this? No, not at all, but I do think they've been very forward-thinking about it in general.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 18:41

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OneMoreCasualty · 18/11/2015 18:36

And then people criticise transwomen for trying to look "feminine".

I haven't seen this on the thread or on MN before.

Great posts, Buffy.

ArcheryAnnie · 18/11/2015 18:32

I'm only on page two, I intend to read the whole thread, but in the meantime:

Transwomen find being called "male" offensive.

This from Ego is just factually incorrect. There's a growing group of transwomen who freely acknowledge that they are male, even after transition. This group of transwomen have been under repeated and sustained attack from trans extremists and their allies - threatened, doxxed, their employers contacted, and so on - just as gender-critical women have been.

This isn't a division of opinion with transwomen on one side and women on the other. There are both transwomen and women on every side of this argument. To claim otherwise is disengenuous.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 18:22

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 18:19

So what we need is more unisex facilities (that aren't just changing the signs on the women's while leaving the men free to have their own). You'd be happier because you wouldn't be worrying that people have made you and it being potentially triggering for them or them drawing further attention to you. Women wouldn't have to worry that they could soon be sharing facilities with huge, hairy men that say they feel like a woman. Everyone's happy.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 18:05

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