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Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 18:30

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QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 18:22

I don't use female pronouns for transwomen, it feels like saying that grass is red. I use they or their name.

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 18:18

And actually, I'm of a mind to reclaim our goddamn pronouns

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 18:16

Just revisiting the bleeding on the floor/flooding your trousers at work...the biological reality

On a recent trans thread, a trans poster was describing their upcoming reassignment surgwry and lamenting whether it would be successful/convincing/functional. I was totally triggered as a number of my family members and close friends have eñdured FGM, from aged 5, sometimes twice. With no sterility or anaesthetic or after care. My SiL couldnt deliver her firzt baby and she lost the baby in labour. I expressed that as an example as to why it was so upsetting to have men insist they are women, based on 'a feelung". A feeling, which women dont actually experience Confused

On a concurrent thread, my 'comparison' of gender reassignment surgery with FGM with used as an example of transphobia on MN Confused Sad Angry

It had me crying with anger and frustration. I find it hard to give a fuck about people wittering on about fucking pronouns; whilst simultaneously being so dismissive and minimizing of issues like FGM

RufusTheReindeer · 19/11/2015 18:10

Or you could have a support topic and then sub topics

RufusTheReindeer · 19/11/2015 18:09

Could we just have a support topic

You could post whatever you like but only supportive answers would be 'allowed'

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 17:45

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QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 17:37

Gender critical posters do already leave posts about trans kids in the LGBT topic alone. As far as I know anyway as I don't even go on that subforum as the transing of children really upsets me. As much as I'd like to persuade parents that they aren't necessarily doing the best thing for their child by transitioning them (especially given that four out of five 'trans' children grow out of it as long as they have no medical intervention), I really can't remain rational or civil on the matter because as far as I'm concerned it's child abuse.

ArcheryAnnie · 19/11/2015 17:22

I would be wary of expectations that a support area would have one unchallenged view on anything. There are trans women who are very public about saying that even after the long journey to full transition, making peace with the fact that you are still essentially male is essential to your long-term happiness. Saying this in a dedicated support thread might be viewed as incredibly supportive to some, and really frightening to another.

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 17:18

I think a Trans topic would be good, to offer a support area.

I'll always post on a trans thread in chat or FWR; to point out erosion of women's spaces/services/protection

I'd leave alone, in a trans support area

FloraFox · 19/11/2015 17:09

Also, Iran is I think the only country with a higher rate of FTTs than MTTs as lesbians are coerced into transitioning.

ArcheryAnnie · 19/11/2015 16:53

Multishirking I think you are right that homophobia (internalised and external) has a lot to do with people coming to identify as trans rather than gay. It isn't an accident that Iran - as has been pointed out numerous times here - has more men undergoing SRS than any country except Thailand.

The "trans guy poster boy", Teena Brandon, wasn't a trans guy at all, but a lesbian and a survivor of abuse who was trying to find a path to continue to survive. There's a good account of how her life has been co-opted to suit the current narrative here: www.triviavoices.com/the-inconvenient-truth-about-teena-brandon.html

RomiiRoo · 19/11/2015 15:33

But I was reflecting on that too, Multi, watching different masculinities at play in a meeting - being a woman may just seem a more manageable citadel to conquer, than demanding a redefinition of masculinity to be more inclusive - and a path also more acceptable to men born as men as it reaffirms, rather than challenges, their status.

MultishirkingAgain · 19/11/2015 15:00

I think there's a lot of homophobia involved as well. It seemed to me that that was what was at stake with the boxing promoter person who decided to transition in his/her 60s. They were a confirmed public homophobe.

Maybe it's more acceptable to 'become' a woman than simply be a man who prefers to have sex with other men?

Because being a woman is an unimportant negligible identity and so can be played around with. To be a man is something solid and serious and shouldn't be messed with.

HoneyDragon · 19/11/2015 14:47

It's a unique activism from some

Someone goes "I'm a woman for this day forward"

People go "okay that's cool"

Someone goes "it's hard, I'm finding it hard. It's women's fault I'm finding it hard"

And people buy into this theory it must be true rather than misogyny at play, yet again.

RomiiRoo · 19/11/2015 13:22

I don't know, at this rate, feminism might be doomed.

The argument - at least what I have read - seems to be against separate boards for trans people and support, for valid consciousness raising reasons on what the trans issues actually mean for women born as women experiencing discrimination, reproductive issues, gender based violence, disproportionate poverty on a daily basis. Why have we got separate boards for feminism then?

To go back to the earlier discussion, IRL this already matters. It matters - for example - when gender equality discussion in the workplace becomes about trans issues, rather than childcare or parental leave (as is happening where I work); when there are decisions to be made about whether to fund surgery for gender dysphoria or breast cancer; whether really what the trans debate is doing is reinforcing existing hierarchies because of the visual and vocal identification of trans* activists with a particular male and commercialised construct of femininity - not what it actually means to be a woman in lived experience from birth onwards.

I'm tired of actual, real life male privilege, and trans*women and activists seem to want to assert new forms of that privilege. As noted already, same old story, different words.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 13:00

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 13:00

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 12:59

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 12:56

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FloraFox · 19/11/2015 12:47

That is an excellent quote from Orwell. Do these new feminists not realise that to fight oppression you must first name it? If we have no words to talk about the class of people who actually or potentially bear children, we can't identify an oppressor class or the things that are done to the oppressed class. Girl babies are not aborted or murdered because they like pink sparkly shit and girl children do not have their genitals mutilated based on their feelings of identity. All oppression of women (those people who potentially or actually bear children) stems from exploitation of women's sexual and reproductive labour and the associated domestic labour. Without the words to name and analyze this, there is no feminism. No way to pull together the things that happen to that group of people and change then.

HoneyDragon · 19/11/2015 12:40

Liking pink sparkly shit means you have excellent taste, not a gender.

Ds gets it, everything where you fill in your sex at his school is labelled gender. We've discussed feminism, gender and sex since he was teeny.

He's twelve, he understands to the point that when his tie was off (legit reason) and a teacher questioned its absence he replied

"I'm feeling more She than He todaySir, so opted for trousers and no tie" (uniform policy is tie compulsory for boys but not girls).

He's twelve.

whatdoIget · 19/11/2015 11:02

Fucking hell. Reading that quote from 1984 has chilled me. It's terrifying Sad

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 10:30

:( cote

Fusion, i have a boy with 'girls interests' too, i agree about the worry that he will be persuaded he is in fact 'female'. As someone who can be a tad suggestible myself, i am honestly convinced that if i had been young now, i would have been convinced i am in fact 'male'.

CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 10:19

Yes, a dystopian headfuck is exactly what it is.

This sort of schizophrenic manner of thinking where males are women ("Transwomen are women, period!") and one can be a woman AND a man according to how they feel on a given day ("genderfluid") is exactly the sort of Doublethink that George Orwell warned us about in 1984: "Doublethink is a form of mental discipline whose goal, desirable and necessary to all Party members, is to be able to believe two contradictory truths at the same time."

We are already deep into Orwell's vision of Newspeak - the very word 'woman' is now impossible to define, if you reject its dictionary definition adult human female and buy into the concept that a woman is anyone who feels like a woman, including functional males in their 60s who have had no problem fathering children the old-fashioned way for decades.

And if we can't define 'woman' based on our shared biology, then we can't talk about the social and biological issues caused by that shared biology - transwomen don't have periods, have FGM, or need birth control pills so it is trans-exclusionary and transphobic to say these are women's issues.

Quoting from 1984: "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end, we shall make thought crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

Orwell would have weeped to see his vision come real so perfectly.