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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:59

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Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:59

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SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 17:57

Is having the thing you want dismissed comparable to close relatives having suffered FGM, though?
You want it, you think it's a good idea, you don't think that what you want to happen to your genitals is mutilation. As you know, not everyone thinks about this as you do.
Whilst it's always nice when everyone agrees with you and sees the world as you do, if we all cried every time that doesn't happen, we'd never stop.

ArcheryAnnie · 20/11/2015 17:57

A lot of us are deeply upset by much that are on these threads, Ego, not just you. It is really, really personal to all of us, because it affects all of us personally - and I freely acknowledge that this includes you.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:56

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Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:53

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SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 17:50

Not to stoke the fire here, Ego, but you've just likened Shortcut's distress on the subject you've just said is not the same as genital surgery that is chosen and desired to your own tears at not getting the latter and people describing as something you don't think it is. I get that you want it and you haven't had it yet, but it's not really the same, is it?

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:30

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Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:24

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Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:21

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Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:19

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ShortcutButton · 20/11/2015 17:16

No ego it wasn't you. It was another poster, who gave a list of examples of transphobia on MN

I appreciate your apology. However, you did point other people at the post as you felt it explained transphobia on MN 'nicely'

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 16:58

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ArcheryAnnie · 19/11/2015 20:20

God, ShortcutButton, I'm so sorry your SiL went through that, and I am so sorry you were treated badly on here.

Thanks
slugseatlettuce · 19/11/2015 20:00

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QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 19:11

I can imagine and I wish I couldn't.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 19:10

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 19:09

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ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 19:08

buffy I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to say you can't imagine, I meant 'one' can't imagine. I certainly can't imagine surviving that, myself Flowers

QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 19:05

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. No transwoman is ever going to go through anything even approaching what your SIL did.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 19:04

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ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 19:03

mod I think you will find that tg people and their allies have the same ability to be rude as gender critical feminists or anyone else Hmm

I do think a zeperate support area would be good, all the same

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 18:55

Shit, shortcut :( Flowers

Modestine · 19/11/2015 18:53

A whole mirror section of MN for support only would be good. Rude people, and people who don't know what rude is, could go over to the other side.

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 18:47

She was 17 at the time buffy and had to walk 5 miles with the baby crowning, to get to a Dr

You just can't imagine, can you Sad

I'm sorry to post this stuff. People have said its irrelevant to the trans 'debate', that its a separate conversation

But I don't feel it is. These are precisely the reasons I can't accept TW as women and why I don't want them in women's spaces. Other experiences too, lots of them. But I mea, it's not just a high level academic debate is it. Trans people aren't the only ones with 'stories'