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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Racism policy

337 replies

ThePigOfHappiness · 31/12/2013 15:17

Hi,
I was just wondering if you could let us know when the racism policy has been amended? I'm sure following today's discussions on NI that it needs to be looked at.
It's clearly breaking the equality act to discriminate based on nationality as it is racist, yet MNHQ don't acknowledge this?
Ta

OP posts:
Pan · 10/01/2014 22:48

tbh I think Justine was as clear as she could be. Not the crystal clear I'd wish but I'm taking it as a correction from previous stated views, a recognition that national identity IS a source of possible unpleasantness from others (and will be deleted as and when) but also a desire to not turn the site into a Nethuns, and an apology re this particular issue.

For me at least I'm taking it all in good faith and intent, and the relevant threads have been informative for a few posters who obv type better than they think.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/01/2014 19:43

Or the next Scottish independence thread....

MNHQ lets some truly shitty stuff stand on those

BrandNewIggi · 10/01/2014 19:40

Well I guess we have to wait for the next NI themed thread to see if this has made a damned bit of difference... I'm guessing not. I guess we just can't take a joke Hmm

figrus · 10/01/2014 19:20

Hq's conclusion is as clear as mud....

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 18:29

Yep- i know how you feel.

wannabedomesticgoddess · 10/01/2014 18:11

I had a reply typed out but I just feel like there's no point posting what I want to say.

Fuck it. Whatever.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 17:18

Yes.
Google The Pale Ireland.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 16:47

Really jingling? I had always wondered what 'the pale' was but that is very good to know. I wonder if there is somewhere that can be verified so that HQ could make an informed decision on the use of that phrase.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 16:42

Actually the use of Beyond the Pale in the Talk Guidelines dates back to English rule in Ireland when anything outside an area surrounding Dublin (known asThe Pale) was thought to be inferior and uncivilized.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 16:30

I agree with you wiggles. I think 11 days for what was expected to be a much discussed and thought out response is awful.

Had this been about another nation (Polish people for example) the response would have been very different and far more immediate and clear. As it is, irish 'jokes' are so commonplace on MN that HQ were probably quite confused about why it was an issue and whether it actually was one or not.

wigglesrock · 10/01/2014 16:14

wood for the trees not word for the trees.

wigglesrock · 10/01/2014 16:13

I don't really understand the word for the trees comment, so there were lots of reports about the initial thread but that didn't mean enough people were offended by it or was the reporting not clear enough. I think it's quite fair to say that MNHQ wet their pants a bit because the thread was started to goad NI posters, I still am not clear why second opinions had to be taken in MNHQ as to whether it was offensive?.

I'll be honest & I understand that people have been on holiday (although most people I know get 3 days off over Christmas & New Year unless they work in the education sector) but I feel that had it been any other posters complaining it would have been dealt with quicker.

And I still don't understand what the initial deletion message thought it was going to achieve?

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 16:06

I sometimes think that Ireland,Northern Ireland and the whole history behind it is not a well known subject amongst MNHQ. For example using cod irishisms may seem funny to one person but for a long time anything Irish was beaten,in some cases to death out of Irish people.

MrsFeathersword · 10/01/2014 15:58

I feel I've waited a long time to hear.. Well, not very much!

But I think there was an acceptance that anti-Northern Irish comments could be racist (correct me if I am wrong) and that's a step further forward than the responses we got on NYE.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 15:52

I Think thats what is concerning me- it seems your bar for deletion is whether something was said with the intention to offend. When in fact a lot of the things causing offence are being said out of ignorance and not malice. Ignorant comments said with the intention of raising a chuckle can actually cause more upset because when objections are raised they are responded to with 'get a grip it was a joke' 'lighten up' 'sense of humour failure' or accusations of being PO. These comments were all directed at anyone objecting to phrases used in the title and OP of a thread concerning visiting Dublin a few days ago.

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 15:43

@YoureBeingASillyBilly

Taking your example justine- would you remove it if it was "typical gun toting american" (i have seen this on MN and it is rightly objected to)

It all depends on the context. I could imagine it being said in an ironic, funny way. But yes if it was said in malicious way, it should probably go.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 15:29

The Irish were an oppressed group for a long long time and in some places are still referred to as Paddies so I'm assuming that you will be including Ireland in that...

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 15:19

Taking your example justine- would you remove it if it was "typical gun toting american" (i have seen this on MN and it is rightly objected to)

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 15:13

@JinglingRexManningDay

Thanks for the clarification Justine. Will this mean any anti Irish or Irish piss taking posts will also be deleted (or anti whatever country or whatever country piss taking posts for that matter)?

Well, I think humour is a slightly different category to downright bigotry and as said we don't want to end up deleting absolutely everything reported as offensive, so I think we need to keep things deliberately vague here to allow us to use common sense. Eg I'm not sure we'd want to remove "typical stiff upper lip Englishman". We are much more inclined to remove piss takes of minority, oppressed groups however. And we've all noted the hurt these two threads have caused and will definitely bear that in mind going forward.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 14:41

Hmm, not sure that has cleared up or clarified anything at all justine other than reiterating what was already known about HQ made a mistake with their initial handling of that thread.

I would like to know what HQ's intentions are for any future threads or comments (and currently running threads that have been reported but remain unchecked) that express a derogatory or bigoted attitude towards a country or nationality or the people who identify as being of that nationality.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 14:32

Thanks for the clarification Justine. Will this mean any anti Irish or Irish piss taking posts will also be deleted (or anti whatever country or whatever country piss taking posts for that matter)?

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 13:22

Ok, first of all apologies for the delay in getting back on this. That's entirely my fault to be honest, I've only just managed to read the threads in question, though they've been well flagged to me, as been away and lots of things occurring since I've got back.

I agree that the original thread should have been deleted for being deliberately inflammatory and I'm glad we got there in the end.

The reason for the moderating confusion in this case is that we don't have a knee-jerk deletion policy because a user or a number of users find something offensive. There are plenty of times when one person's humour, for instance, is another person's soft spot and we generally take the view that it would become very hard to know where to draw the line - who are we to decide that one person's hurt is more valid than another's? We'd end up routinely deleting everything on offence-caused grounds which would mean deleting an awful lot. On balance we'd rather go for free speech, debate etc.

BUT, as said, in this case that was the the wrong call. The subject matter is clearly serious, the hurt is profound and the OP's general subsequent posts did indicate that this was a thread that was started to inflame.

Secondly, I want to be clear that we absolutely don't want racist views on Mumsnet. I agree with everyone who's pointed out that racism can take the form of prejudice based on nationality and that we ought not to be too worried about the semantics of what constitutes racism or not, we ought to delete nasty, bigoted prejudice-based comment straight away. And to be fair, I think, we generally do.

So, all in all, we didn't handle this as well as we'd have liked. It can be incredibly hard sometimes to see the wood for the trees, particularly when there are lots of reports going down and people are angry. And some of these calls, as you know, are tricky to make.

Thanks to all for your input and apologies to those who've been upset by this issue.

SacreBlue · 10/01/2014 11:35

I have laughed at tv programmes with silly Oirishisms and dodgy accents. This does not mean I have to accept comments or threads perpetuating stereotypes, and condescending attitudes, to my heritage without challenge.

Having a sense of humour can relieve a lot of stress and, challenging attitudes, often ingrained, can also move things forward. I totally agree with PP's analogy of the use of stereotyping amongst their own group - I have zero problem with a fellow Irish person or friend of any nationality calling me Paddy etc but the use of that type of thing from someone I don't know carries a weight of historical connotations that I may well find very offensive.

I hope that the silence from MNHQ denotes research & debate on the stance to be taken on contentious issues. In the meantime I, like others above, am hiding threads with comments that I find offensive. The only reason I have not hidden this thread is that I want to know the outcome.

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 09/01/2014 16:19

They do seem to be "back in the office" today, I've had about 3 emails so far!

and a PA from me that was over 24hrs old deleted

The1stTimeEverISawYourPan · 09/01/2014 15:02

yes here too as a response to my reporting my own post which was only slightly tongue-in-cheek