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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Racism policy

337 replies

ThePigOfHappiness · 31/12/2013 15:17

Hi,
I was just wondering if you could let us know when the racism policy has been amended? I'm sure following today's discussions on NI that it needs to be looked at.
It's clearly breaking the equality act to discriminate based on nationality as it is racist, yet MNHQ don't acknowledge this?
Ta

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wannabedomesticgoddess · 15/01/2014 21:24

Hey wigglesrock, sorry we haven't responded to your point. It seems, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the majority view on this thread is that we don't delete enough when it comes to NI threads, rather than that we delete too readily? We've looked at what we've been doing in light of that, rather than the other way round...

My personal experience of NI threads is that no one is able to have a discussion about NI politics because we get the few posters coming on making sweeping generalisations that are inflammatory and do make it look as though a bunfight is starting, but instead of just those posts being deleted, as happens on other threads, the whole thread gets pulled. Its like a big red panic button.

People from here are more than capable of having a reasonable discussion, we might not agree with each other, but posters on ff/bf threads and wohm/sahm threads don't agree with each other and their threads aren't being pulled.

The main issue for me on the original thread that this thread was started about, is that it really took so long for HQ to see that the thread shouldn't be deleted for being a bunfight.

Its all well and good saying it eventually got deleted for the right reasons, but the problem is, it took pages of us all saying it before it was heard. That is a fundamental problem that hasn't been addressed properly yet.

wigglesrock · 15/01/2014 21:19

See, I think this is where everything has got a bit muddied. This thread was started on NYE in the afternoon, in response to a goady, nasty little thread that was badly dealt with by MNHQ, the original deletion was a joke & then there was a huge delay in MNHQ responding. In the meantime the "top of the morning" thread happened. There was also a few other issues on NYE which seems to have been dealt with quicker & with more MNHQ response.

Maybe if MNHQ read this thread from the start again, it might become slightly clearer as to why we are a bit pissed off

wigglesrock · 15/01/2014 21:12

Sorry 2 weeks not 3! God, doesn't NYE seem longer than 2 weeks ago Confused ?

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 21:08

Sorry BrandNewIggi Blush! In my first post, I was referring to prejudice against the Irish (as in the Dublin thread). In my second, I referred to NI because YoureBeingASillyBilly said "I think its clear from all of this that HQ need to update their folder on some of the specifics of what is happening and has happened in NI recently." - I thought he'd misread my original post! Because I was reading both of your posts at once, I conflated them in my response; careless reading on my part. Apologies for further muddying the waters.

wigglesrock · 15/01/2014 20:59

No, I think my point is that there is a whiff of the cluelessness re NI & MN in general which to be honest has maybe been made more evident in the past few hours.

Anyhoo it's all done now, pity it took the guts of 3 weeks to be at not really much of a conclusion.

BrandNewIggi · 15/01/2014 20:52

I'm really confused now, as your example clearly referred to a jokey remark aimed at Irish people, not Northern Irish - this is why I made it clear that my own background is not that of a racially Irish person. You seem to be using the two terms quite randomly. I think this is representative of the problem actually Sad

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 20:29

@YoureBeingASillyBilly

Thank you sarah- i agree with you wrt dealing with each incident on a case by case basis rather than a blanket ban, however i also agree with iggi that the comparison with being a geordie shows a lack of understanding and this is something i think HQ should think about. This isnt about making fun of an accent and never was. I hope that is clear however that would go some way to explaining the lack of action on HQ's part.

I think its clear from all of this that HQ need to update their folder on some of the specifics of what is happening and has happened in NI recently. Im not sugesting a degree in irish history is necessary but enough understanding to realise why people are upset. At the minute it seems like HQ are Confused and scratching their heads saying "i dont see what the issue is"

YoureBeingASillyBilly and BrandNewIggi - apologies if you felt the geordie comparison was trivialising; that wasn't my intention at all. Of course I realise there's a world of difference between NI and the north-east of England, and I can absolutely see why people have been upset - this is recent (in some regards, ongoing) history; the GFA's only 15 years old. What I was trying to do was to use another example to respond to the particular questions people had raised about the jokey title of the 'Top of the morning to ye!' thread on Dublin - which obviously isn't in NI anyway. In our view, this sort of lighthearted reference to an accent is the kind of thing that ought to be allowed to stand.

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 20:18

@wigglesrock

I was going to say that there hadn't been any reference by MN at all about certainly my thought that MNHQ did appear in general to panic about NI & therefore delete or post deletion messages in a headless chicken manner.

Hey wigglesrock, sorry we haven't responded to your point. It seems, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the majority view on this thread is that we don't delete enough when it comes to NI threads, rather than that we delete too readily? We've looked at what we've been doing in light of that, rather than the other way round...

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 15/01/2014 18:40

Thank you sarah- i agree with you wrt dealing with each incident on a case by case basis rather than a blanket ban, however i also agree with iggi that the comparison with being a geordie shows a lack of understanding and this is something i think HQ should think about. This isnt about making fun of an accent and never was. I hope that is clear however that would go some way to explaining the lack of action on HQ's part.

I think its clear from all of this that HQ need to update their folder on some of the specifics of what is happening and has happened in NI recently. Im not sugesting a degree in irish history is necessary but enough understanding to realise why people are upset. At the minute it seems like HQ are Confused and scratching their heads saying "i dont see what the issue is"

wigglesrock · 15/01/2014 18:29

Yes, I was going to say that there hadn't been any reference by MN at all about certainly my thought that MNHQ did appear in general to panic about NI & therefore delete or post deletion messages in a headless chicken manner.

wannabedomesticgoddess · 15/01/2014 18:26

The issue of threads discussing the political situation in NI and how they seem to be moderated with a heavy hand still hasn't been addressed IMO.

Though I do agree with the above post regarding judgement from case to case of perceived colloquialisms. Its just that that issue came well after the first one.

BrandNewIggi · 15/01/2014 18:22

I agree with much of this post but think it is shaky ground to compare prejudice against Geordies with prejudice against the Irish.
I would never class myself as Irish, but am well aware of the levels of racism they have experienced historically within the UK and in Ireland. Such a comparison suggests a bit of a lack of understanding of this, imo.

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 16:18

Hey everyone,

To respond further to the questions around jokes - as Justine said earlier, things do become a bit more complicated in this area, because in order not to delete every reference to a country that made mention of national characteristics/accents, we need to be able to use our judgment. There's a difference between someone, say, aping a French accent, because of France's position in the world, and someone aping the accent or characteristics of a country that's historically been oppressed or exploited.

Specifically in terms of Ireland, we can see a distinction between jokes of the "Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman" variety, which are built around a denigration of Ireland, and the 'top of the morning to you!' thread title from earlier this month, which was referencing a colloquialism in a value-neutral way (as was clear from the fact that the OP was heading to Dublin and excited about what she might get up to there). An equivalent example might be if someone were to start a thread entitled "Why aye, man! Gannin doon the Toon; what should ah dee when ah'm there?". I realise the north-east is a region rather than a city, and therefore not protected under the Equality Act, but it's certainly experienced its share of social and economic disadvantage relative to the UK over the years. And as a Geordie, I might think to myself "oy, we don't all talk like that, you know" - but I wouldn't (and don't think anyone else would) argue that it ought to be deleted.

All of which is to say that I think we need to retain the ability to judge reports of this sort of thing on a case by case basis; a blanket rule could back us into a bit of a corner. We absolutely agree, however, that national prejudices exist, and we'll bear that in mind when looking at relevant reports.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 15/01/2014 10:28

Interesting that HQ will edit a thread title to save some people from knowing what is happening on a tv show but wont do it to save further people from being offended by national stereotypes!

And have we to wait another 10 days to get a follow up response to these questions?

Do we have to report this thread everytime we post just to et the attention it should already be getting?

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 13/01/2014 19:40

Have HQ declared this thread dealt with? I dont feel it's been resolved properly and would like answers to the posts since justines post.

JinglingRexManningDay · 13/01/2014 10:21

The pale was taught in primary school history in Irelandso no, most Irish people would not have to Google.

BrandNewIggi · 12/01/2014 23:53

Why would you be deleted, or banned? Confused You haven't said anything racist or sexist that I can see? And mumsnet don't delete for stupidity, we've already been told that Wink

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 12/01/2014 23:28

Have i reported you? Did i say i was going to or that i should?

You are telling me to do something that you disagree with without any indication that thats what i intended to do so you can prove a point.

People are doing exactly what you say you do- telling you what is wrong with your comments. You say thats why you love but are telling me to report you instead of doing the thing that you think should be done which i was already doing.

BackOnlyBriefly · 12/01/2014 23:23

Report me and have me banned then. That would be in the spirit of the thread wouldn't it.

I happen to think if you ban everything that someone doesn't like you'll end up with an empty site. I believe in free speech even if it makes some people uncomfortable. Even if it makes me uncomfortable.

I've never reported a post no matter what anyone has said to me. I can take it, and when someone says something 'unacceptable' in our society I love to see a rush of people posting to say it is and why it is. I think that's how we stamp out certain attitudes.

Even if the particular poster doesn't learn from the experience I believe others with similar opinions will realise how the rest of us feel about it and how little support they really have.

BrandNewIggi · 12/01/2014 23:09

Backonlybriefly I think you will find the law is on the side of those who object to hate speech, so I don't think your view carries that much weight, outside of the DM possibly.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 12/01/2014 23:01

You sound as if you are only on this thread to goad people backonlybriefly

BackOnlyBriefly · 12/01/2014 22:57

Ah 'the thin end of the wedge'.

There should be 6 levels on the scale. The 0th one would be "allowing people to talk at all can lead to people saying bad things and eventually to genocide"

BrandNewIggi · 12/01/2014 13:21

This makes me think of Allport's scale of prejudice, with no.1 being as the definition below, and 5 being extermination Sad

. Antilocution: Antilocution means a majority group freely make jokes about a minority group. Speech is in terms of negative stereotypes and negative images.[2] This is also called hate speech.[3] It is commonly seen as harmless by the majority. Antilocution itself may not be harmful, but it sets the stage for more severe outlets for prejudice (see also ethnic joke).

ThePigOfHappiness · 12/01/2014 11:02

Justine, are you really saying that even if a joke had racist connotations that HQ will let it stand because humour is different to malice? Really? Do you not understand that is a key way to further racist beliefs and stereotypes in an underhand way?
Look you know best, this has just handled all wrong.

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BackOnlyBriefly · 11/01/2014 14:40

I've never associated 'Beyond the Pale' with Ireland. Will people have to research it in order to know to be offended by it?

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