New NHS guidelines on IVF treatment to extend age limit up to 42 - what do you think?

no, evilgiraffe. no it is not a choice to not have children because circumstances make it too hard for you.
do you believe that mental illness is real, or do you think people should "snap out of it"?
Do you think that poverty and debt are real, or do you think that if people budgeted properly it would all go away?

infertility is not the same thing as childlessness but infertility is only one of the causes of unwilling childlessness and your refusal to see this is exactly the sort of thing I mean.

I think curryeater raise a good point that it's not only infertility that prevents women from having children. Several of my friends have wanted to be mothers but have not been able to/ felt able to for social reasons.
But I guess infertility is more of an absolute barrier to having a baby unless it can be overcome.
As always my thoughts are with all here x

I'm not sure what you mean, curryeater. What societal issue causes infertility? Infertility and childlessness are not the same thing. It is terrible that some people feel unable to have a family - but it is still their choice. It may not feel like one, but there are a lot of people out there in circumstances which they wouldn't describe as favourable, who have children anyway. If you are infertile, it takes away the choice of having or not having birth children - regardless of your personal circumstances.

I am not well today, so apologies if I have mis-read your post or lacked clarity in my own.

Actually I am a little unsure about how I feel about this and I am not "I'm alright Jack". If anything - if my feelings are influenced by my personal circumstances - it is much more "would that I were alright, Jack". I have written some much more nuanced things on this thread that have been completely ignored.

• Obviously there is nothing wrong with women in their 40s having babies
• except if you are a raving misogynist
• in principle women who want them should be supported to have babies at any age
• but why is there such a priority given to medical barriers to childbirth, so distinguishing very unfairly, between "deserving" and "undeserving" causes of unwilling childlessness?
• this distinction is being reinforced on this thread by people insisting that everything else in their lives was exactly as "they" wanted it to be - married, starting ttc reasonably young, solvent, etc
• and this really rubs me up very seriously the wrong fucking way, because it does nothing to address the very real societal problems that makes having children so fucking hard for so many women. It's about asserting your status as one of the righteous ones, and by implication totally reinforcing that if you have not been able to have children because you did wait till you were 40 to tcc (because you wanted to be able to keep them), or because you have such shaky mental health that you have not tcc (because in this weird society having children places such a huge disproportionate psychic burden on mothers) or because you don't have a husband (because a sexist society demands a huge personal sacrifice from women in traditional relationships) or because - whatever - for whatever reason you have been unable to jump through all the millions of other hoops between women and child-bearing - by buying into this primacy of the medical as the only thing, you are saying "fuck you" to all the other women.

I don't want to sound unkind, but didn't your husband leave Xenia?

And most 21 year old men knew would have fled for the hills upon finding out I wanted to settle down with them for their sperm.

I'm glad I stayed with the love of my life rather than search for a sperm donor.
^
What evilgiraffe said.

Incidentally, I also have a degree. DH is a well-paid Oxbridge graduate. But that doesn't matter, because I loved him when he only had GCSEs to his name, and in any case we are still infertile - level of education makes bugger all difference.

What if your perfect man doesn't want children so early in his life? My DH is completely perfect for me in every way, we've been together since we were teenagers, and he is kind, fun, loving, intelligent, and I can't imagine life without him. We started TTC when we were twenty-seven - hardly leaving it too late, but by Xenia's logic I should have ditched him and attempted to get knocked up in my early twenties instead. Of course, given that I'm infertile, that wouldn't really have helped, would it? I'm glad I stayed with the love of my life rather than search for a sperm donor. I'm also glad that DH has input into our choice to start a family - since when was it all about the woman? I don't know about Xenia's marriage, but mine is a partnership, not a dictatorship.

Is anyone anywhere suggested the NHS should provide IVF for women of 60?

By and large it IS possible to conceive and carry a baby if you WEREN'T a teetotal, celibate 20 year old. I wasn't a teetotal or celibate, and gosh, I got a very good degree at the age of 21 from what I now find out is a Russell Group university!

Yet I still found myself infertile in my early 30s.

But you can't plan for a baby if you have an undiscovered fertility problem!

It is not just about women who "leave it too late", it is about those of us that have been actively trying for many years but cannot get pregnant due to a medical problem. It took 18 months for me to be diagnosed with a problem and now, another 18 months later, I am still going through treatment. If this treatment fails then I will be referred on for IVF.

You did it the only right way, tis true.

I don't think we can say women are a target when IVF is being extended although the NHS always has scarce resources so probably most mothers on here woudl think there should be an age cut off point and a fixed number of attempts. What would you put that at?

i certainly reserve my right to have IVF triplets at 60 if I so choose (I doubt I will) although not on the NHS.

Someone mentioned 20 year old virgins. I did graduate a tee total virgin at 20 all part of the plan to win university prizes, have babies early which I could afford to keep etc which I formulated when I was about 14. I am saying that encourage daughters to plan careers and perhaps careers which earn a lot of money so they can fund IVF (be the doctor not the nurse etc etc) and plan their babies in time liness which are more likely than not to result in what their aims are.

In terms of 'we can't afford it' why are NHS trusts paying PFI companies ahead of ensuring staffing levels are safe? We should be defaulting on such deals which are unaffordable and renegotiating them, if we really are that broke.

Why is it, that women are an easier target than the companies who run these appalling schemes?

Yes fingers crossed here too Northey. And I agree with the scepticism about 'we're in a deficit, we can't afford it'. We've afforded writing off £6bn owed by Vodaphone alone in taxes. That would have paid for a lot of IVF. The government is casual enough about what it can afford when it wants to be.

Fingers crossed for you northey xxx

Well said Ariel. You are absolutely right about people's attitude, and it stinks.

If by some miracle the ivf embryo currently in me happens to stick around, I really want to consider donating the four we froze. I am so grateful for the help we've had all through this, and if we can help another couple who are in an even worse position than us...

Its fine ariel as i said i have been blessed with my five and wanted to share that luck, and thats all.it is luck! My recpient had twins!! Just going through the process of giving eggs was stressful enough so i cant imagine having to go through it and then having to go on and try and get pregnant as well. In the big scheme of things it was not a problem for me to do it, but must be much harder with the weight of needing it to get a baby.

If i can i may donate one more time, i need to speak to dp tho as it is logistically hard to organise re childcare and travel as i have to go to.london for the egg retrieval etc.

I don't know if anyone's said this 5madthings, but that's a great thing you've done. Thank you :)

I cant understand how anyone can begrudge fertility treatment, having being blessed with my madthings i wish more could be done to help those with fertility issues which is why i donated eggs.

I cant begin to imagine the heartache it causes and maybe those that are so against ivf etc should step back and try and imagine themselves in the position of needing fertility treatment.

It's very much the "I'm alright jack" attitude. If they have children why should they care if someone else needs help? It's not their problem. Morons.

I never knew I felt so strongly about this until I read this thread.

The nastiness of people over 'older mothers' is fucking horrendous. The disingenuous bleating about 'competition for scarce NHS resources' is predictably cruel from the secure right-wing.

Well, good for NICE. They have recommended evidence-based treatment guidelines for a medical condition. Good on MN for publicising these (as usual).

With reference to the comment above about going overseas for IVF, there are no reliable figures on this. How could there be? It's not like you have to declare what you're doing when you check in at the airport. I swiftly stopped telling people about it unless I absolutely had to, because you get some really strange reactions -- however much you explain, people think you are going abroad for a holiday. Mmm yes my 'holidays' normally feature medical treatment and then hanging around in an apartment for several days . Since the new legislation in 2005 requiring all donors in the UK to be identifiable, rates of donation of eggs and sperm have dropped noticeably, meaning that couples who need gametes (particularly eggs) are likely to consider the overseas option at some stage.

I did tell my NHS midwife & consultant the treatment we'd done but to be honest they aren't very interested in how you got pregnant. I'm sure we could have never mentioned it, and some people probably never do. The HFEA 'guidance' about overseas treatment is rather sniffy and there is a strong subtext that if you go abroad you are taking your life in your hands, which I found very worrying and unhelpful when we were looking into it. In the event the medics overseas were thoroughly professional and unlike the majority of the medics we'd encountered in the UK, were very keen for us to succeed. There was no judgment. Even the clinic's taxi driver shook us by the hand and wished us a successful outcome. It was moving.

Bottom line: I reckon UK IVF rates are much higher than anyone realises.

Bravo, LineRunner! I never had fertility problems, either, but don't understand the level of mean-spiritedness I see growing in the UK, vicious, 'I'm all-right-Jack so fuck you!' or 'If I can't have it, don't get it, no one should,' just low-rent form of thinking.

I added a MASSIVE caveat to the original rather badly thought through statement, Line :). Hopefully no one will take offence apart from those whom it was intended for

I am a successful-procreator-type who absolutely would not want to pull up the ladder behind me.

Who would want to do that? What kind of person adopts that attitide of 'Fuck you' over something so important and fundamental to people, as having children?

Twats, that's who.

And yes I do pay taxes.