Planned changes to secondary-school exams (EBacc etc): teachers say there should be more consultation; what do you think?

chloe74 - reading Couthy's post again I have may have understood what she said about maths. However I think this statement of hers is worth repeating:

What good is a qualification that excludes my DD from exams, wastes years of her life, leaves her unemployable because employers won't accept a 'school leaving certificate' that isn't a recognised qualification, and prevents her from attending college.

I am personally not against the ebacc itself. I am against it being rushed in without proper thought, I am against a qualification which ignores the arts & music and I am against a system which tells 20% of children 'We have nothing for you'.

Past form suggests that a statement of achievement will probably be worthless.

Jux - you don't explain why she doesn't choose Art or Music. If she is academic wouldn't she be able to cope with 9/10 subjects?

Dd is massively academic. She is also a talented musician and her art teacher loves and has said that she'll be incredibly disappointed if dd doesn't do art.

There isn't room for dd to do the non academic subjects she wants to do and I am concerned that only doing the academic subjects will have a bad effect on her emotionally.

She's in Y9 and is choosing subjects now, but there seem to be some set subjects which she simply has to do, at the expense of all-roundedness. We have a meeting early next term so am hoping things will have changed sufficiently so dd can have a more balanced education.

Music and art are vital parts of creating well rounded individuals and I'm shocked that Gove seems to have missed something so fundamental.

I got the impression from previous post that is was the studying maths that was worthwhile.

However I was making the point more generally that in terms of employment/college/business/wider community etc that anything below a grade 'D' in GCSE was considered a fail. At that level it would be better concentrating on what a child can learn that is useful to them rather than wasting time on an exam.

You need to ask Couthy - but from what she said, she seemed to find it worthwhile for her daughter.

LaVolcan - What qualification does a G grade in maths give you now? Probably less than a statement of achievement. Better to spend the time learning than wasting it on exam you can't pass.

I agree a separate exam for less able students would probably be better but left wing propaganda has made this impossible.

Given that the consultation has just ended and we haven't heard the governments response I think it is only fair to wait a few more weeks before jumping to conclusions.

Sorry if that came across as antagonistic, I'm not arguing with you, noble giraffe, just trying to show people in general that although as individuals we may never come across y11s who are not entered for gcses, there are a significant number of them, and gcses are not the wonderfully inclusive qualification some people seem to think they are.

@chloe74 because at present the plan is that only the top 80% will be entered for the exam. At the moment Couthy's daughter has the chance to gain a qualification - in the future there seems to be no plan put in place for her to get anything, except a vague statement of achievement which will probably be worthless.

I suspect what might happen in that case would be that colleges began to formulate their own tests to assess whether the students can cope with the course. But who knows?

I said almost unheard of, Leafmould, not totally unheard of. Clearly there are going to be students for whom even a GCSE is inappropriate, but compare that rare situation to the proposed new qualification which will be designed to be inaccessible to one in five students!

MoreBeta ? Pretty much the same as me.

outhyMowEatingBraiiiiinz ? I don't follow your reasoning. I understand you feel your DC would be unable to complete all of an EBacc, but she wont be forced to and how does it follow that other children who can achieve this shouldn't be allowed to? How would your DC?s chances of going to college for catering be any different than they are now?

I work on a foundation learning programme. This is for kids with no gcse's. None of then have a maths gcse, and very few were entered for it.

Perhaps it may be unheard of to you noble giraffe, but not to me. It's the norm.

Well said Couthy.

All children take Maths GCSE. Even ones that have to fight to achieve a 'G' grade like my DD.

Not all DC's are CAPABLE of passing a Maths or English GCSE with a decent grade. It doesn't make them unemployable. My DD struggles with algebra and shape work, but is fine with weights and measures and temperatures in Maths.

What will she need to use in her chosen trade if Catering - not algebra, that's for sure. So her failing her Maths GCSE won't make her unemployable as long as she can tell the time enough to get into work on time, weigh and measure her ingredients, and time how long things need to be cooked for...

Her Catering GCSE that is equivalent to an NVQ level 2, shaving a year off the time she will spend at college, deals with making HER more employable than a Maths exam she will never pass.

What is going to prepare her for employment better - sitting in a classroom where people around her are doing Maths work she doesn't understand, or learning what causes Coronary Heart disease, it's symptoms and treatments, and how to change your diet and adapt a recipe to prevent Coronary Heart disease?

What good is a qualification that excludes my DD from exams, wastes years of her life, leaves her unemployable because employers won't accept a 'school leaving certificate' that isn't a recognised qualification, and prevents her from attending college.

As it is, DD will make up her 3 'C' grades at GCSE to get onto a Catering NVQ 3 at College in Biology, Catering and Textiles. All far more relevant to her future life and employment!

Morebeta, maths is already compulsory! It is almost unheard of for students not to be entered for maths GCSE.

As for keeping the old exams and not inventing new ones - Gove thinks that GCSEs are so discredited that the only option is to scrap them. Fine, tbh, at least that would give a clear line for the changes instead of the successive years of tinkering we've had with GCSEs. But the ideas he has put out for consultation on what form these new exams should take are terrible. As far as I can tell, EBCs are planned for English, maths and (all three) sciences starting 2015, with humanities and MFL starting the next year. GCSEs in those subjects will be no more. Where pretty much everyone sits Maths and English now, one in five won't, at least in Y11. No one knows what will happen to the other subjects because he hasn't mentioned them. Presumably they'll continue as GCSEs (discredited) until someone puts them out of their misery.

MoreBeta: are you making the assumption that the standards of 20-30 years ago were better? Alternatively, are you assuming that they were worse and that Gove wants more children to be thrown onto the scrapheap?

i would certainly like to see all children having a balanced education. I agree that a child shouldn't come out of school with only taking DT and not maths, but I suspect you would be hard pressed to find a school which didn't teach all children maths.

LaVolcan/noblegiraffe - is it possible that we just carry on with the old exams that dont change much but that certain subjects are compulsory and recognised with an additional certificate.

My DS1 will be in the second year of this so I am concerned. I dont honestly think they will invent an entire new exam and ban children from taking chemistry, physics, biology, history, georgraphy, art and many other subjects as individual exams.

I think Gove just wants to introduce a basic minimum educational attainment and not allow children to come out of school at 16 with say a GCSE in DT and never having taken any kind of maths exam. I honestly think he wants breadth in education and a basic standard in the core subjects - not to throw away the old system entirity. He wants reform and a return to the standards of 20 - 30 years ago not destruction of the entire education system.

I do genuinely want more info and I am worried about a rushed introduction that is botched but I suspect the NUT might also do its best to make that introduction as chaotic and difficult as possible. Worst of all world would be a new Govt that cancels it all at the last moment.

The worry is that when Ofqual laid out their concerns Gove said he would talk to them, but "If they still had concerns and I still believe it is right to go ahead then I would do it, and on my head be it" which makes us wonder just how much he is going to listen to the experts.

Morebeta, I think there is plenty to fear from what is known! And that so much is unknown for brand new qualifications we are supposed to start teaching in under 3 years time is also very worrying. If I had a child in Y7 now I would be very concerned indeed. Even if the details are ironed out, exam formats decided and specifications drawn up in time for Sept 2015, it's going to be such a rush job that the first cohort will really suffer from lack of adequate preparation. Once the changes are bedded down and established, students will be starting to prepare for these new style qualifications from Y7, which will give them a huge advantage. (Will they be allowed to do better than the poorly prepared cohort or will that be deemed to be grade inflation? If grades are artificially reduced to keep them in line with the first cohort, then how can the level of skill of these students be compared?)

Here is some info on the old school certificate. www.educationengland.org.uk/documents/acland1911/index.html which makes interesting reading. I had thought that Gove wanted to take us back to a golden age of the 1950s, but reading this it looks as though he wants to take us back a century.

MoreBeta: I don't think that it's a question of opposing everything that Gove does, it's just that in this case it's all being rushed in, without the details being known and despite misgivings from many bodies besides teachers. I am sure that most of us posting here would consider ourselves to be well informed and educated but we are not at all clear about what is being proposed. Is that because we are deluding ourselves and we are really all a bit thick, or is it that Gove really hasn't bothered to think it through?

Unfortunately I am an old cynic and ultimately I think Gove's main aim is to do what will further his own career. I hope this one backfires on him spectacularly, but I have a suspicion that he will have moved on by then and someone else will be picking up the mess he has left.

After all the NUT have a record of opposing everything that Gove proposes whether it be good or bad.

I am a bit suspicious that we are being drawn into opposing Gove plans by by whipping up fear among parents. Fear of the unknown actually.

I too understood or at least thought I understood the Ebac would just be a certificate that showed you had achieved a certain standard in core traditional subjects but that all the subjects woudl carry on being taught and examined as single subjects just like the old O Levels or GCSE.

I dont believe for a moment that Gove wants to stop children taking arts subjects or taking 3 sciences if they wish.

Yes we need to know the details but as far as I can tell those details have not yet been published.

Remember, if the exams are to be sat by 80%, that means 1 in 5 students will get no qualifications, just the bit of paper saying what work they covered (but weren't examined on). It'll be worthless.

Not sure what the old school certificate was. The new qualifications will be separate qualifications in separate subjects with a grade for each (but 1-6 rather than A*-G). If you pass all of them, it's called an ebacc. If you don't sit them, you get a piece of paper listing the work you did at school when everyone else was studying for their exams. If you pass some but fail others, you'll get your EBC in maths or whatever you passed, but not the ebacc. If you fail all of them, I guess you just get a certificate with 'fail' for each subject.