Madmouse's open letter to MNHQ about the treatment of those with disabilities on MN

I too see far more prevalent disabilist attitudes on Mumsnet than in RL.

And it makes me wonder if it increases because this is a place that permits it. Because MNHQ do permit it. They "let it stand" as its "useful" for posters to "be educated." And when one post stands, other people seem to feel its okay to join in with equally disabilist views.

I've seen similar happen in groups where one person makes a racist remark and others seem to realise this is somewhere permissive for them to voice racist beliefs.

MNHQ would not sit back and allow that to happen. Any racist remark gets deleted and rightly so. They send a message.

They send a different message when its people with disabilities being discriminated against, that disabilism is not bad enough to actually delete. That they value self-moderation above preventing disabilist attitudes on their site. And for the life of me I do not understand their priorities there.

It would be different if people with disabilities or their families or carers were saying to let such posts stand and that they want to engage in debate with the people who post such things. But they aren't. they are asking for such posts to be deleted, not sanctioned by leaving them there.

I think HQ are utterly utterly misguided when it comes to this and there is a risk of disailist attitudes becoming more and more prevalent on this site as a consequence.

I'm furious too. I think I need to step away from Mumsnet for tonight at least. Before I spontaneously combust

I keep typing replies to mn hq, but give up I am too angry
imo they have made their position clear.

beautiful post OP :)

I'm not a fan of thread deletions. Or really of post deletions either- I would rather people's awfulnesses stayed for all to see.

And I haven't really been following this debate- it looked to me as if it was atypical git's outing so I left it alone. But if a thread started to challenge the gist was deleted for "goading" ffs, mumsnet really needs to think about it's policies.

I find it incredibly depressing, the sheer "I'm alright jack" attitude that the thread about wheelchair space on buses displayed. I mean really? At what stage did it became reasonable for mummies to equate their practical considerations in using public transport to those of a person in a wheelchair?

Just plain wrong.

Just to add - I think that the fact that the original wheelchair space on bus thread was allowed to stand was discriminatory in itself. The fact that it is considered reasonable to have a debate over whether a disabled person should be allowed to access facilities put in place for them, is disgusting and an insult to all disabled people and their loved ones.

How many years and pounds did pushchair users spend campaigning for better access for prams on public transport?

Just to say I'm with you MM.
I have a dd with SN&have not encountered in real life the disabilist attitudes that I have read on MN.
Is it because there is a certain anonymity attached??
What scares me is,all those people out there,if they are harbouring these views,my dd&I are not as accepted as I thought we were.

Well said madmouse

Do you know what I often wonder where these posters come from. I mean I don't know anyone who would refer to a disabled person as a 'wheelchair' not even any of my teens' friends. It makes me feel sick to my stomach that there are people like that out there, but not only that they don't see anything wrong in what they are doing!

D0oinMeCleanin - Exactly! The clue is in the name. Its a wheelchair space, its for wheelchairs. Not pushchairs, wheelchairs.

They have allowed people with pushchairs to use the space when it is not needed for its intended purpose, as a favour. Is this too complex for some people to understand, or does their own sense of entitlement overide the rights of disabled people to access the facilities that have been provided for them?

There shouldn't even be a debate about it. There is nothing to debate, and we need to get away from this perception that disabled people get some sort of favouritism.

A Mumsnet campaign perhaps?

I agree mad mouse, and I applaud you for starting this thread.

I am never closer to leaving MN than when I lurk, or occasionally post, on those sort of threads. I am disabled, not a 'wheelchair' yet, but it's pretty inevitable. Those threads make me cry. There is a chance that dd will have ms too - might be showing signs of it now - and the sheer unpleasantness and selfishness of some people makes me so miserable.

The fact that a post will be deleted with such apparent ease and speed in so many other contexts, but will stand when it is, not in so many words, actually saying "disabled people are lesser beings" and nothing happens, is soul destroying.

I am not an advocate of deletions as a rule, in general threads I think all posts should stand so everyone can see who is being a cunt, but so much of the stuff that goes on in the SN threads etc is surely illegal.

But we live in an intolerant, unkind, and devil-take-the-hindmost (that's me then) society.

yes, MAryz - thankyou for putting it so much more clearly than I did (am breathing through Braxton Hicks atm, so thought processes a bit muddled).

but yes, I agree. it's like philosophy exam qustions, isn't it? is there ever a way to justify the unjustifiable? and so on.

and thin end of the wedge is right.

I have been on the receiving end of funny looks occasionally in the past - we didn't have a Mac Major for dd1, we used a P&T instead (suited us better), and so of course we 'looked' like we just had a buggy we were refusing to fold. it's amazing how many people wouldn't listen when we tried to explain - we nearly got thrown out of dnephew's Holy Communion (yes, that's right, thrown out of a church!) because they had a 'no buggy' rule, and seemed to be unable ot comprehend that actually, we were not keeping our 5 year old in a buggy for fun - that she needed it. I honestly thought dh and the oh-so-friendly () warden were going to come to blows - the warden even tried to wheel dd1 out of the church at one point .

it's just all so bloody tiring, and for us it was temporary at least. I cannot imagine facing it for the rest of my life, iyswim.

I don't understand why anyone would need educating about this?

It's simple, no?

Situations where it is okay to use the wheelchair space on a bus when there is a wheelchair user waing to get on the bus include and are limited to:

1. You are also a wheelchair user or you are accpmanied by a wheelchair user.

Situations where it is not okay include:

1. Anything that is not in the above list of reasons.

Thanks Maryz

unless they think you are going to bring a suit against them based on their violation of a law (is there a law against creating a hostile environment for people with disabilities? Are they included in legislation against hate crimes), MN see revolting threads as teachable moments.

Yet another thrilling chance to justify your/your child's continued existence to bigoted arsebrains who don't give a damn

Hear hear!

Imagine how fast it'd get pulled if the title was "AIBU to think this black woman should have sat at the back of the bus where she belongs?"

well said Madmouse

Well said madmouse. I avoid those types of threads now as I just get too and upset.

An unwelcome voice of dissent, I'm sure, but the thread was not disablist. It is not 'disablist' to debate the use of a wheelchair space by non-wheelchair users. Some of the posts on that thread may well be disablist, and they should be deleted. That doesn't make the whole thread 'disablist'.

However, in general, as a parent of a child with disability, I have been shocked by the number of truly disablist posts and/or threads that have been allowed to stand despite being reported.

Although I disagree with MadMouse's thread of choice to raise this issue, I also support her in saying that Disability has more protection in law than any other 'designated person' category, because not only is the disabled individual themself protected by the Equalities Act, but also their carers by extension.

I do feel that MNHQ should give that some thought - bear in mind that you are publishers, and that the people protected under the Act are your posters.