Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Madmouse's open letter to MNHQ about the treatment of those with disabilities on MN

555 replies

madmouse · 20/06/2012 19:05

Dear MNHQ

I joined MN when I was pregnant with my lovely ds. That heady autumn with bump before such words as NICU, neonatal seizures, brain damage, cerebral palsy, speech delay, special school entered my vocabulary.

That was 5 whole years ago - and all that time MN has been a part of my life. Got a lot of support from my ante- and postnatal buddies and from experienced SN mums. Gave back where I could. Became ill with PTSD, found the MH threads, recovered, started to give support on the MH threads.

Now I've come to the point that the only thing stopping me from leaving MN is that I would let down people on the MH threads. Other than that your (MNHQ) behaviour today has been an eye opener and a bit of a final straw.

MN has become, like RL, a place where disabled people and people with disabled children are not safe, not treated equally and not extended the same courtesy and respect as those without disabilities.

What happened today is just a tip of the ice berg. Day in day out threads appear with the same old theme. AIBU to use this disabled space because my baby's maxi cosy is too big and the P&T spaces are full, AIBU to use the wheelchair space on the bus (those two appear weekly by and large), AIBU to think it's nice to be disabled because you get lots of benefits, AIBU to think disabled people have it easy, AIBU to think I should have a free car too seeing as that I pay taxes.

It goes on and on and on. And none of it is ever challenged other than by a small group of us who do all this fighting in RL too - because it affects us and our children.

There is such thing as discrimination. And you do have a duty to stamp it out. Hand off moderation is no excuse certainly seeing how quick you were to delete 2shoes thread when some of us started fighting back against the endless threads of threads which in turn are copies of last week's threads.

I am very disappointed. And I think you have some thinking to do.

Best wishes

OP posts:
MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:25

@ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough

You see those personal attacks on the disabled are worded just so, so they don't break talk guidelines, made by prolific posters who know what they can get away with.

So is there going to be short term bans for repeat disablists?

Yes, as we said earlier, if we notice (or are tipped off) that a poster is persistently attacking the disabled but perhaps flying below the guidelines radar, we would definitely take action.

Glitterknickaz · 21/06/2012 11:23

SillyPhase no, of course there won't.
HQ want to keep those posters.
Those who have left in the past (including me), those who are considering their membership now.... we don't matter.

HQ have made it absolutely clear that we will be treated differently and that we matter less.

I'm only here to support and maintain links with friends I've made here. That's it. I'm fully aware that MN is hostile for people with disabilities and their carers. Which is really sad.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:23

@Badvoc

Sigh. You say that you are "proud"of the sn/sen section on MN" We are not here to make you or anyone else proud Helen, not even MN. We are here to try and forge a place - albeit a virtual one - that is safe for us. Where people understand, where we can share advice, tips and info. where we can laugh at things others would deem unfunny I.e. our struggles with our kids sn/sen and others reaction to it. We are not here to "educate" the ignorant and bigoted. Sorry. Do you tell other section users (like the stately homes thread) that offensive posts are let stand so that others can be "educated" about childhood abuse? I don't think so. Does that answer your question?

We do completely understand that you don't want to feel that it's your place to educate the ignorant and bigoted. And we agree that it's not your place to, either. And apologise for past communications from us that made sound as though it should be - no one should be getting that kind of mail from us any more.

However, MN is a place that doesn't censor or pre-censor debate. We believe that, through reasoned, civil debate, attitudes can change. Which means we do, at least initially, allow uncomfortable and even offensive opinions - on all sorts of topics - to stand (unless they break our guidelines).

That said, we realise, as we've said here earlier, that we could do more in these instances to post on the threads and let everyone know where we're coming from - and what we absolutely won't tolerate. We think it would be helpful, from now on, to spell out our thinking on the boards for all to see, not just in mails to those who've reported.

ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough · 21/06/2012 11:17

You see those personal attacks on the disabled are worded just so, so they don't break talk guidelines, made by prolific posters who know what they can get away with.

So is there going to be short term bans for repeat disablists?

Maryz · 21/06/2012 11:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:13

@Maryz

You see, I wouldn't be half as upset over this if they hadn't deleted 2shoes' thread so quickly - within 2 hours it was gone, the others were/are there for days.

If her thread had stayed, we could have had a rant from the other side.

I actually don't mind the light moderation - I don't even mind so much leaving some nasty comments, as long as we are allowed to call people on what they say, and tell them exactly how offensive they are.

The trouble is so-called "light" moderation only works if it works both ways.

Leave the bus threads if you like. But allow people to educate on them - including allowing us to call people selfish, self-centred and ignorant, if that is what they are. And allow threads like 2shoes' to show the "other side".

It does sound as though the timing was unfortunate, Maryz. But I am sure as sure can be that it wasn't deliberate (not our style, as we'd hope you'd know).

And calling people selfish, self-centred and ignorant, while very possibly true, would be making personal attacks. We're sure you could find other ways to phrase those points, though.

Badvoc · 21/06/2012 11:13

Sigh. You say that you are "proud"of the sn/sen section on MN"
We are not here to make you or anyone else proud Helen, not even MN.
We are here to try and forge a place - albeit a virtual one - that is safe for us. Where people understand, where we can share advice, tips and info. where we can laugh at things others would deem unfunny I.e. our struggles with our kids sn/sen and others reaction to it.
We are not here to "educate" the ignorant and bigoted. Sorry.
Do you tell other section users (like the stately homes thread) that offensive posts are let stand so that others can be "educated" about childhood abuse? I don't think so.
Does that answer your question?

ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough · 21/06/2012 11:13

Thanks. Apparently someone disabled @hould have been assaulted according to the post I reported.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:09

@ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough

Last I saw the post I reported still stands.

I haven't seen your report, ASillyPhase, but I will go and have a look and see where it is in our inbox.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:09

@Badvoc

MNHQ :None of your posts are answering the questions being asked are they? Why does mn tolerate openly disability bashing? I am sure we could all find threads or posts in the last month that mn have let stand. Is that what we have to do? Actually list the offensive threads? Oh sorry I forgot we can't, we are busy dealing with the issues and realities that sn and sen bring to our lives.....

No, we have just said that we do not tolerate disablist postings.

And that, from now on, we will be more vigilant about going onto thread and reinforcing that stance.

If there are threads or posts we have mistakenly let stand in the past month, we would be happy to revisit them. As we've said, we don't go in for blanket censorship of certain topics (though, God knows, that would be easier) so we have to weigh up each reported post in context. We acknowledge that we're not perfect and that we have much to learn but we'd like to think we're always open to your questions and responsive to your feedback.

amillionyears · 21/06/2012 11:08

You are foreever having "less than ideal response times" .
That is my point.
You can give us 10 different excuses,reasons,call them what you like,and keep on apologising,but the bottom line is,you are still not employing enough staff.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 21/06/2012 11:07

Marking place to read more on this important OP later.

Maryz · 21/06/2012 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough · 21/06/2012 11:04

Last I saw the post I reported still stands.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:03

@Badvoc

It makes me sick, it really does. Have been an mn regular (with a couple of name changes) for 5years but this attitude by mnhq is making me question my membership. So very sad. Mnsn section and home ed section has helped me so much - my son woudnt be where he is now without the help and advice I gained on here. I have people I count as friends on my post natal thread and some of the humorous threads are truly eye wateringly funny. I will miss that :(

What attitude, Badvoc? Do please tell us what in our most recent post makes your question your membership. We'd like to be able to reassure you.

Badvoc · 21/06/2012 11:03

MNHQ :None of your posts are answering the questions being asked are they?
Why does mn tolerate openly disability bashing?
I am sure we could all find threads or posts in the last month that mn have let stand.
Is that what we have to do?
Actually list the offensive threads?
Oh sorry I forgot we can't, we are busy dealing with the issues and realities that sn and sen bring to our lives.....

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 11:01

@amillionyears

And as for their constant excuses "staff sicmness left us on the back foot",other times it is "our mail software is [with incredibly bad timing] on a go slow" yadada yadada yadada.Bare minimum staff overnight etc. All are excuses for not employing enough staff,to keep MN costs down and MN profits higher.

We're not making excuses, amillionyears. They were two genuine reasons for our less-than-ideal response time but we do - and have - apologise fully.

Badvoc · 21/06/2012 10:58

It makes me sick, it really does.
Have been an mn regular (with a couple of name changes) for 5years but this attitude by mnhq is making me question my membership.
So very sad.
Mnsn section and home ed section has helped me so much - my son woudnt be where he is now without the help and advice I gained on here.
I have people I count as friends on my post natal thread and some of the humorous threads are truly eye wateringly funny.
I will miss that :(

amillionyears · 21/06/2012 10:56

And as for their constant excuses "staff sicmness left us on the back foot",other times it is "our mail software is [with incredibly bad timing] on a go slow" yadada yadada yadada.Bare minimum staff overnight etc.
All are excuses for not employing enough staff,to keep MN costs down and MN profits higher.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 21/06/2012 10:55

@ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough

Add fathers for justice to your list, yet disaist comments are tollerated.

No they are not, ASillyPhase. Please see our post just a few moments ago.

ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough · 21/06/2012 10:52

Add fathers for justice to your list, yet disaist comments are tollerated.

Badvoc · 21/06/2012 10:50

Carers are the lowest of the low in this society.
And on mn it appears

Badvoc · 21/06/2012 10:49

Totally agree NC
If some of us had the access to expensive legal representation like the mccanns and g ford then this shit would not be let stand
Shame on you mn

PurplePidjin · 21/06/2012 10:37

Tired stressed Mum with shopping? What about the tired, stressed, minimum wage carer pushing a grown adult plus shopping?

Disabled people have rights, carers are seen as an appendage to the chair user/disabled person. Maybe the carer has been working 12 hour shifts back to back to provide continuity of care (I've nowt against agency staff per se but they generally tend to be chocolate teapot when it comes to anything other than the basics because they don't know the residents) and doesn't want to spend ten more minutes in the pissing down rain just because a service user decided they fancied going out for a coffee.

And we haven't even started on all the parents and spouses acting as unpaid carers all over the country.

You think it's hard wrangling a toddler plus buggy plus shopping? Try it when your cute toddler is a 20 year old adult and tell me folding your buggy is hard work Angry

notcitrus · 21/06/2012 10:32

Just to add another voice to the ones here saying that people are given way too much benefit of the doubt when they are disablist, in a way that doesn't happen with other discrimination.
For this reason I reported three posts on that thread this morning - individually out of context I'd expect MN to say 'oh they were only saying', but in the current context it's not ignorance, it's wilful inconsideration.

Especially if MN is going to pussyfoot round the sensitivities of the McCanns and delete non-libellous content that might 'upset' them. Why don't disabled people get extended the same courtesy?