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Original poster

Troll-hunting and subsequent Thread-ruining

338 replies

oneofsuesylvesterscheerios · 07/04/2012 16:42

Yes, in some ways this is a thread about a thread, although its actually an interesting general point too. Plus, I don't want to carry on the discussion on the actual thread as it would be too damaging and would take it off in a completely different direction.

So... If a poster broke the rules and shouted troll, and then they were chastised (rightly) and the post removed, unless the offending surrounding comments reacting to the troll-hunt are removed too, the damage has been done surely?

We assume when someone posts regarding a personal trauma that they are telling the truth (well I hope we do) and if we suspect anything, we surely just ignore these days: we know the MN guidelines, etc.

And we know that certain situations in life happen to a lot of people (bereavement, loss, break-ups, etc). So when someone goes through a horrible time, the beauty of MN is that we don't just get sympathy and unmumsnetty hugs; we get empathy from folk who have been there themselves. We also often get bloody good advice, practical and emotional.

A thread that contains an accusation of troll-hunting is blindingly obvious even when the offending poster's comments have been removed. And thus, the damage is done.

When my dad died last I had some fantastic support from mnetters who'd suffered the loss of a parent and knew how 'rootless' it can make you. I'd have been confused and beyond upset if anyone had questioned my grief online. It doesn't matter how many positive posters there are on thread; just one snarky comment and the wave of a pitchfork is enough to send the OP packing, at a time when they might need the 'anonymous' support of MN most.

So, what I'm asking MN Towers is: if troll-hunting is banned, and it's fully acknowledged how damaging this could be on a thread that offers support to lots of people, often not just the OP, shouldn't all references and posts regarding an accusation be completely removed so the thread can remain intact and totally focused on the thread subject? Otherwise, it seems pointless.

OP posts:
TheSlightlyScaryStalker · 08/04/2012 10:44

So it's not ok to call troll, but it is ok to call someone a bully? I know the poster that's referring to and it's not true.

Maybe you need to question why you're so happy to pass on personal attacks about posters as a means to backing up your argument while at the same time criticising the behaviour of others.

usualsuspect · 08/04/2012 10:43

I just ignore the treads, I rarely report now.

I think everyone should be a bit more internet savvy tbh.

OracleOnACrossacle · 08/04/2012 10:42

oneof, trolling isnt allowed on the boards either. but it happens. I know which I'd rather see the back of!

have you ever been damaged by a troll? because it seems to me that posters who rant against troll-hunting are the ones who've not been hurt by a troll. I, for one report, based even on a gut feeling. but if I see posters getting upset because they are worried about a poster, offering to start a kitty, offering RL support, I will post a "be careful" message. its not ideal, but thinking back to the real impact that dizzy, SS, CVQ etc had on others, and Hillllls had on me.... fuck it. Its the trolls that are the "enemy"

Original poster
oneofsuesylvesterscheerios · 08/04/2012 10:40

But how do we know?
We could shout troll on every thread then, couldn't we? Where do we draw the line?
If a thread seems innocuous in every other way, shouldn't we just leave well alone?

OP posts:
SoupDreggon · 08/04/2012 10:40

"It's the heart of the matter when it comes to an established poster being called troll because they have changed their name for one issue and so an Advanced Search shows no other posts."

No, because if they wanted to post under another name for a sensitive issue, they could just get another registration with the same problem. Name changing makes no difference to this (or sock puppetry).

The heart of the matter isn't the trolls - you get these on every website and nothing will stop them. What causes the problem is the Troll Hunters making public accusations on the thread rather than contacting MNHQ with their concerns.

usualsuspect · 08/04/2012 10:37

Trolls are not allowed either , and they do more damage to the site than troll hunters.
I don't believe half the threads in relationships , because it seems to be the place to troll.

Thats the damage trolls do.

Original poster
oneofsuesylvesterscheerios · 08/04/2012 10:34

But the whole point is that troll-hunting is not allowed on MN, as per the guidelines and because of the damage it can cause.

If in doubt, report. That's the advice. Yes, I can see it can seem awful to see posters getting sucked into what might be an absolutely obvious troll-thread, and the temptation would be to wade in. But I think that I've seen an example of what can happen when it backfires, and potentially alienates a troubled OP.

OP posts:
usualsuspect · 08/04/2012 10:26

Blaming the troll hunters and causing trouble on the boards is giving the trolls exactly what they want.

OracleOnACrossacle · 08/04/2012 10:23

And I see what you're saying Sue regarding the accusations of troll-hunter making the accuser just as bad, but if we applied that to children who tell on the behaviour of bullies, then we'd be encouraging no one to speak up.

I see the trolls as the real bullies. and the troll hunters as the ones who stand up for the poor kids getting sucked in. they may not get it right all the time, but I really dislike this "picking on anyone that dares say -this doesnt seem right, be careful" mentality.

it seems that the troll-hunters are getting all the grief at the moment, while trolls are allowed to do as much damage as they want.

Original poster
oneofsuesylvesterscheerios · 08/04/2012 10:17

Some of the original advice is very useful, yes.
Is it a useful thread now for the OP? No
Is it a potentially upsetting/damaging thread now for the OP should she return? Yes
Could lurkers going through a similar experience benefit from the thread? Yes, as long as they aren't put off by the cry of troll and the fear that if they were to post in a similar vein they run the risk of being disbelieved (even though the situation is horribly common)

And I see what you're saying Sue regarding the accusations of troll-hunter making the accuser just as bad, but if we applied that to children who tell on the behaviour of bullies, then we'd be encouraging no one to speak up.

The implication made about the troll-hunter on that thread was more of an observation about the nature of this person's posts in the past, which seem fairly abrasive and provocative on the whole.

OP posts:
OracleOnACrossacle · 08/04/2012 10:06

I agree with sue.

edam · 08/04/2012 10:05

It's both. I've seen some stupid 'troll' accusations that are just dim and cruel - where the accusers appear incapable of believing anything outside their own personal experience could possibly happen to anyone else. And some awful trolling that exploits people who are going through tragic experiences.

(Just checked and my profile still says I'm a hairy-handed trucker - did that because I was in a silly mood when MN brought in profiles and have never got round to changing.)

SuePurblybiltFromChocolate · 08/04/2012 10:04

To be fair - isn't a poster coming on and implying that the troll hunter is bullying and untrustworthy the same behaviour? I mean, casting nasturtiums and all?

And I don't think it's 'fact' that the entire thread is of no use anymore - how can you possibly say that no part of it is of any use to anyone? Troll hunting may have introduced a sour note, granted, but to say it's all ruined and useless is a bit dramatic.

OracleOnACrossacle · 08/04/2012 10:00

It is the Troll Hunters that are at the heart of the matter and are a big part of the problem.

Actually, no, its the trolls.

OracleOnACrossacle · 08/04/2012 10:00

It is the Troll Hunters that are at the heart of the matter and are a big part of the problem.

Actually, no, its the trolls.

Original poster
oneofsuesylvesterscheerios · 08/04/2012 09:58

The problem is that Im not asking for the thread to be deleted; I'm pretty sure it wasn't started by a troll. I've been back onto it and now another poster has implied that the troll-hunter has a reputation for bullying behaviour in the past...

I've no idea if this is true, although the behaviour on that thread was pretty awful and uncalled-for. And I would imagine MN isn't going to enter the realms of sending persistent offenders of nastiness to their office; there's only so much they can do and it involves subjective judgements on what kind of behaviour is acceptable in a free forum.

But the fact remains: the thread is of no use any more unless all references to trolling are completely removed (maybe 20 posts on the end of a thread that has a few hundred other comments).

OP posts:
TheSlightlyScaryStalker · 08/04/2012 09:06

Its all very well saying that threads by trolls need to be deleted quickly, but what denotes a troll thread? Its easy enough for MNHQ to pick up on blatant trolls, but there are times when there are no obvious links to known trolls, so its not so easy then. There are ways to find out whether someone is a troll besides IPs and the like, but they take time. If you have it that if a thread is reported 100x then its automatically deleted, I can think of at least one thread that may have gone when its actually from a genuine poster.

I'd say that 99x out of 100 I can spot a troll thread and I'm not going to say how as its a lesson in trolling, but the one that the OP is referring to hit my radar and ticks all of the boxes for a goat muncher. I have other reasons for doubting its veracity.

I've also seen a lot of other threads that are from obvious namechangers. Again without stating why they are obvious, they are. They are different and behave differently from the trolls.

I report a lot and the times when I'm not sure are usually the times when MN come back to me to say its a regular.

So wandering around and getting back to the point - Asking MNHQ to delete the trolll threads isn't as easy a request as it seems, asking people not to warn other posters that it may be a troll is difficult for those who can spot them a mile off and feel bad that people are revealing their real life traumas to a faker. Blaming troll hunters and MNHQ is like blaming the symptoms for the cause of the disease.

TooManyOddSocks · 08/04/2012 08:10

I name change regularly. I always make it visible on my profile when I joined, not that doing that stops a poster trolling (think a couple of long time posters have been outed as trolls).

Maryz The thread I assume oneofsues is referring to, is still there.

Tee2072 · 08/04/2012 08:08

It's the heart of the matter when it comes to an established poster being called troll because they have changed their name for one issue and so an Advanced Search shows no other posts.

That's what I meant. But I do also think it encourages trolling and, even more, sock puppets.

SoupDreggon · 08/04/2012 08:07

It is the Troll Hunters that are at the heart of the matter and are a big part of the problem.

SoupDreggon · 08/04/2012 08:06

No, name changing is not the heart of the matter because it is extremely easy simply to set up another registration. Removing name changing solves nothing.

Tee2072 · 08/04/2012 07:36

Oh the ability to name change willy nilly is most definitely the heart of the issue and, I am fairly sure, unique across the 'net for that very reason.

ThisWeekonFancyJesus · 08/04/2012 07:34

I think a lot of the problem is the name changing facility. I don't know whether a poster is a newbie or reg name changer. Just because they say they are a name changer doesn't mean they are IYSWIM

If there was some way to mark all posters with either a coloured dot for length of membership or have the floating bar give year and month of joining that would help. The truth is that I am more likely to believe a reg with a 'shocking/unbelievable' story than someone who appears to be posting for the first time.

Tee2072 · 08/04/2012 06:56

Interesting idea about the Tsarinas, of which I am one. Personally, I wouldn't want the responsibility, but I imagine some would.

MaryZ · 08/04/2012 00:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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