Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

If Fathers for Justice invade again

468 replies

Nyac · 07/03/2012 14:57

will they still be welcome?

I'm referring to the thread in the Feminism/Women's Rights section -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1419965-Agenda-much

where Justine said:

"an invasion - ie let's go on and tell those mumsnetters why they've got it all wrong - isn't necessarily the same as trolling tbh (ie deliberately misleading/antagonising). I think we ought to be able to be robust enough to be able to debate the issue, with the caveat, of course, that if visitors turn out merely to be here to wind up or hear to spread hatred then they are not welcome"

It appears that as long as they promote their agenda in PARD then no harm done. Is that a fair assessment?

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 09/03/2012 07:59

have been thinking this and actually have to say that some of the things that were said to mnhq people last night would have seen most of us hitting the report button because they were personal attacks if they were directed at us.

solidgoldbrass · 09/03/2012 07:56

Fair enough. I do see that it's a big PITA to be the ones who will actually end up in the dock if someone did launch a libel action (though in the case of f4j I really wouldn't worry. They haven't got enough money for a libel lawyer.) so you sometimes have to be more cautious and back down quicker than some individuals would.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/03/2012 07:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

swallowedAfly · 09/03/2012 06:42

that's a bit garbled - not something that can be seen impartially or tolerated is what i should have said.

swallowedAfly · 09/03/2012 06:40

Justine fair enough i reckon. i'm pleased to see you state they are not a credible organisation. i 'think' that sometimes, when we have people on here who are promoting malicious myths and false statistics about mothers that that is what people are really trying to get from you - an acknowledgment that mnhq doesn't think those views or those who are promoting them are credible.

i'd also agree that some of the comments on the last thread got pretty offensive towards you and i was a bit shocked. as you say though emotions were running high - this organisation saying things like only a tiny proportion of dv allegations are true and the rest are made up by malicious women is bound to upset and anger women here who have been through harrowing domestic abuse and even those of us (like me) who haven't. and personally as a single mother i clearly find a lot of what F4J promotes offensive, dangerous and frankly completely and utter lies - such as there 1 in 3 children are fatherless nonsense and women deny contact because they want benefits from the state - which doesn't even make sense.

whereas i can see that on a lot of things you have to remain impartial whatever your own personal feelings i do hope when it is a group, or individual, who are utterly misogynist, offensive and destructive towards mothers you can agree that it's 'beyond the pale' and not something that can't be viewed as impartial or tolerated as 'just an opinion' without the hosts of that space being in some way complicit in it iyswim. at those times it can make a massive difference for mnhq to say something in recognition of this you know? i reckon that people got so angry because of this - though obviously i'm putting words in their mouths.

oh and i very much hope you're right that no one sees F4J as a credible organisation because their rhetoric is sounding more commonplace in this era of tory-fied discourse.

Honeydragon · 09/03/2012 04:04

And also thanks to the babe station weirdo, I am now the unchallenged grand supreme head poster if Mumsnet, and waiting for my honourary bid red button.

Honeydragon · 09/03/2012 04:01

Good for Justine. I don't want Mnet to lose its freedom - for every person who registers purely in the cause of twattery, we probably get another twenty who bring positivity to the site.

madwomanintheattic · 09/03/2012 02:55
Wine
madwomanintheattic · 09/03/2012 02:54
Grin

You getting all the night shifts, now??

JustineMumsnet · 09/03/2012 02:35

Oh and I also think it's an appropriate time to bring this up again

JustineMumsnet · 09/03/2012 02:09

Evening folks. So I've given all this a bit of thought and here's what I think:

F4J is not a credible organisation. The media doesn't take them seriously. They have 500-odd twitter followers and 1000-odd Facebook followers. In short they have little influence and no traction.

By contrast Mumsnet is widely acknowledged as influential. Ministers (and Prime ministers) like to visit us. Brands like to partner with us. Newspapers like to write about us.

F4J's only way to get noticed is to come up with stunts. A fight with Mumsnet fits the bill - but only if we comply. Many of you have commented that F4J are trolling and as we know, the first rule of trolls is DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. I know it's tempting but by taking them on, you are totally feeding the trolls.

Quite frankly we have much much more entertaining and really more important things to do than with our time than to given oxygen to this particular group of individuals. Furthermore, why give the media (a few of whom would adore a MN are harridan-bullies type angle) anything to sidetrack them?

We are launching our We Believe You Campaign on Monday. We have each other to enjoy. People we do not need to do this!

On the question of your data:
I've been doing this (obviously) since we started (12 years), and I can say categorically that the only info we've ever passed on about a Mumsnetter was on one occasion when it was is clear she and her child were in danger. Other Mumsnetters had contacted the police about her abusive domestic situation and the police contacted us for contact details and I was happy to comply.

Do we routinely pass data on? No. Would we pass data on simply because a lawyer asked us to? No. Both Gina Ford's and Garry Lace's lawyers badgered us (with threats if we didn't) to pass users' details on and we didn't comply. Various companies who have been miffed about things written about them have made similar requests. We have never complied (and we would fight well on your behalf using all the channels open to us).

It's slightly worrying that, given our history and our privacy policy that some could think otherwise. If you really think that badly of us, it begs the question: why on earth are you here?

We are also committed to libel reform. The current laws are print laws for a digital age. We are viewed as a traditional print publisher when we are not one - we are hosting other people's thoughts and opinions, not commissioning, editing and publishing them. I want people to be able to raise concerns and speak the truth here and I hate the fact that we sometimes have to delete stuff because they are not our words and we don't know the truth. And I hate the fact that individuals and organisations know this and play on it by sending us threatening legal letters. The reason those legal letters work is that we simply could not fight every case and nor should we have to. It's not our case it's the authors!

Please don't have a go at us for this stupid and outdated law. We are paid up members of the libel reform campaign. If you are fed up with this situation then join up and help get those laws changed libelreform.org/
You are simply being naive if you think we or any website is going to ignore legal proceedings.

And as an aside, since this has become something of a baring of the soul, I think one or two on t'other thread have been bang out of order towards MNHQ and Helen and Olivia in particular tonight. I understand that feelings are running high but if you really think that poorly of us - and some have been extraordinarily aggressive - then why the heck are you here? Honestly why? I assume you value being here? Why are you being so rude to the people who are simply doing their best to follow our guidelines, explain what they are doing, and to facilitate your conversations?

Our moderators are not whimsical, or controlling or power hungry. They are dedicated and hard working and, quite frankly, really nice people. They are simply are trying their best to keep the conversation going according to our guidelines.

Mumsnet is not exclusively for like minded people. We believe being open to differing views is important for our long term health and vibrancy. Over the years a lot of folks have struggled with that idea and would rather we did things differently - that we banned difficult conversations and contrary people . But that would lead to something very different and stagnant and soulless imho. (Obviously am not talking about trolls and fascists here). Some of those people have moved on and some accept things as they are - namely that we are an open space to publically exchange thoughts and ideas to make parents' lives easier. That's what we're are trying to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

So the answer to the question on this thread - what would we do If F4J invaded again? (and let's be frank, there were only 2 or 3 involved in the "invasion") is that we would take the situation on it's merits. If they were here to engage in an honest and non-aggressive way we would let them carry on. If they came and spouted misogynistic crap, we would ban them. If it transpired that they came only to wind folks up and/or to promote one particular orthodoxy only and not engage in genuine debate we would also, once established, ask them to leave. We would at the same time, delete posts towards them that breached our guidelines.

I'm not gonna lie here - I know it's not what some of you would have us do. But we are what we are.

runningforthebusinheels · 08/03/2012 23:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

solidgoldbrass · 08/03/2012 23:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

bananaistheanswer · 08/03/2012 22:51

ditto

swallowedAfly · 08/03/2012 22:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

swallowedAfly · 08/03/2012 22:45

marking place for tomorrow or i'll never find this.

Nyac · 08/03/2012 22:23

I"m going to update my question. Now F4J have been issuing legal threats against Mumsnet and having Mumsnetters' posts deleted, will they still be welcome if they stage another invasion?

OP posts:
NormaStanleyFletcher · 08/03/2012 09:58

Bump

runningforthebusinheels · 07/03/2012 21:48

Ha! So Nadine has no worries about 'shutting down the debate' when it suits her.

They don't want a debate at all - they just want to fill MN pages with their own agenda. And gaffa-taped young girls. Hmm

Thankfully their idiotic, dangerous, headline-grabbing stunts should have done enough to ensure that nobody in power takes them seriously. The Law Society treat them with the derision they deserve:

'the society's chief executive, Janet Paraskeva...said, "the Law Society is appalled by the behaviour of Fathers 4 Justice. It diminishes the debate and in no way serves the interest of children or their parents."'

NormaStanleyFletcher · 07/03/2012 21:42

Hi M Grin

mummylin2495 · 07/03/2012 21:37

pops in to say Hi to fletch Smile

NormaStanleyFletcher · 07/03/2012 21:23

I am not getting banned. I am on FB in my real name only, so they ain't getting any posts from me (I am the only person in the world with my particular name combination that I have found)

Nyac · 07/03/2012 21:21

It's a badge of honour getting banned from their pages.

OP posts:
Nyac · 07/03/2012 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

FrothyDragon · 07/03/2012 21:04

Aside from the last sentence, that's the comment I got when I got banned from the page.

I only asked them to stop misquoting me, why they went with the ad campaign they did, and a couple of other points that had come up on the first evening of them patrolling the MN FB page...