Speaking at Unicef conference on "Mumsnet and feeding: What are women talking about?" Help needed:)

I am EBF my 5 month old DD, which to a large part is due to mumsnet.

I went to NCT classes and was brainwashed :) that breastfeeding was best. My DD was born by EMCS and small (4.8lb) so I was in hospital for 4 days.

What shocked me was the completely conflicting advice given to me by practically every HCP on the ward. This was not exclusive to BF, including one MW would told me to strip DD and do skin to skin, followed about 10 mins later by another one who told me off for not having clothes on the baby. Grrr.

Some MWs were helpful in getting BF established, others were worse than useless. A nursery nurse came in and told me my baby was crying because she was hungry and that she had to have a cup of formula. I was in so much pain and sleep deprived I let her, because...she is a HCP and knows best right? Well not according to the paediatrition I saw the next morning who was furious that someone had "given your baby chemicals!"

It seemed to me that there was no BF or (indeed other) consistent policy in operation, and they all did what they felt was best, which caused me a lot of uneccessary stress and upset.

This is the issue that needs to be addressed IMO. Surely on a maternity unit, where you can't leave until the baby is feeding well there should be a consistent policy, advice, guidelines and support on how to actually do it? Is that really asking too much?

Totally agree with the points made upthread, that the NHS is very pro breastfeeding when you are pregnant and then appalling once you have actually given birth and need to breastfeed!

There should be standard guild lines across all hospitals, as I am sure there are with other clinical guidelines.

Apparently they can organize someone to come in a take your fecking photo (don't get me started on allowing Bounty people on the wards) but not a consistent support process to get people to breastfeed, which according to all their literature results in healthier babies, children, adults and therefore less drain on NHS resources.

Madness.

Thank god for mumsnet, where I got the information and support I needed to carry on when I was (literally) biting down on a chopstick, yes, a chopstick, for the first week because of the pain.

Thank you mumsnet, not so much the NHS.

I would also like to second the need for tongue-tie training and treatment, it takes two seconds with a pair of surgical scissors for a nurse to snip a tongue-tie (sorry if TMI), but although NICE now recommend this, this depends on the nurses, breastfeeding counsellors and consultants/doctors at the birth check being able to recognise tongue-tie and pass you on to the appropriate person.

My two were both severely tongue-tied, the first never ever latched properly even though we breastfed (painfully) to 10 1/2 months and even though about 5 supposed specialists (breastfeeding counsellors, the midwives, HV, consultant) all saw her about feeding problems. It was finally snipped on the NHS when she was over two and was developing speech problems. Second time around I was alert for it, spotted it, asked the junior doctor/nurse to snip it there and then in the hospital, but again, no-one felt confident enough to diagnose or treat it and I paid privately at three months to have it done at a tongue-tie clinic after really very painful breastfeeding.

Why is this still a problem? They don't have to recommend tongue-tie division, just be able to spot it, discuss pros and cons of snipping, see if there are any current issues (pain on breastfeeding/speech/choking on eating) and do the snip if necessary. It's a minimal easy procedure and they can train nurses to do it easily, and would save resources from sending HV/midwives/bf counsellors to endlessly discuss position/latch when actually what they are suggesting is physically impossible for many tongue-tied babies.

Not that I feel strongly about this or anything...

I didn't discover MN until my baby was several months old, and if I had when I was preg, I would have had a very different idea of bfing:
-that it can be very hard, tiring, demanding, emotional.
-that there is help out there, but internet help might be better than in RL with HCPs.
-that extended bf is common
-that co-sleeping is normal and ok
-that bfing in public is also normal and ok (i had never seen anyone do it, but it is talked about a lot here so people must do!)
-that bf/ff is such a big issue. I literally did not know this until I started MNing.

I am a well informed professional person but I knew hardly anything about bfing when i gave birth!

It scares me actually to look back.

However I do think there is a huge bias towards extended BF on MN which is not replicated in the population as a whole, and that difference is sometimes not helpful to (non-extended bfing) MNers, if you see what I mean. Same goes for BLW which is related I guess.

I agree with so much that's been said above, but wanted to add how angry I get every time I come across a feeding room in a store or other establishment with a bottle as the sign to denote what the room is for. It is the best example of how "normalised" formula feeding has become (although I can understand the implications of having a boob instead!!).

Another great example was the Lapland UK website FAQ:
Can I bring my baby?
...Please bring your baby's food with you; we can heat it up in our Log Cabin dining area where bottle warming facilities are also available

I hear some absolute horror stories about the way women are treated and spoken to on the post-natal ward when they are at their most vulnerable and am no longer surprised that many women give up because it's so difficult. If the "professionals" don't even know the basics, how are new mums supposed to? One friend had a jaundiced baby and was told formula would be better for her than breastmilk so she never BF. I didn't correct her as she was obviously upset she'd not been able to BF, but with this sort of misinformation out there, it's hardly shocking that BF rates are so low in this country.

I am starting to feel almost evangelical about BF and will be speaking to the BFC at my local sure start next week about how to become a peer supporter as I really want to be involved with increasing the number of women that BF and continue beyond the 6 week mark. I think the more support out there for other women the better. And I'm coming from a perspective of not "enjoying" it entirely (both DD's had poor latch, I have strong let down and it's been difficult both times), but I BF DD1 to 13 months (by then I was back to commuting for 4 hours a day and had to express in a storecupboard with no lights at work), but plan to go much longer with DD2 (who is 15 weeks).

I always love reading these threads as I constantly learn something new too - it's such a personal and individual experience.

I feel better informed after reading cloudy and dreamings posts.

Although I've experienced, read, and talked a lot about BFing I've heard very little about the different reasons, including medical ones, why some women may not be able to BF. So, thanks to C and D.

I think the general level of ignorance and mis-information around just about all aspects of BFing is amazing (in a bad way) in the 21st century.

Solo Just for the solidarity I was like you with my two !

So called professionals need training in bf and need to be more open minded with regard to natural term bf. My usually fabulous, well informed and hands on HV was positively ^horrified when I mentioned I was still bf Dd at 17 months, which made me keep my mouth shut when I was still going strong at 4.6 years...Bfing on the whole needs to be encouraged for as long as possible.

Hear, hear, Cloudy.

There's always one person on the threads who insists that everyone can BF and 'not enough milk' is a myth.

My milk didn't come in. I'm not deluded or lying, it really didn't.

I really do think this is a sort of 'collateral damage' of the pro-BF campaigns: it seems harder for some people to 'live and let live'.

It's right and proper that you will discuss misinformation about 'not enough milk', and the fact that the vast majority of women will be physiologically able to breastfeed, if they want to, with the right information and support.

But will you please, as a favor to me and others, try not to characterise as "extremely rare" or "almost nonexistant" those of us who cannot, for physiological reasons (such as hypoplasticity, in my case) produce enough breastmilk to feed our infants exclusively in that way?

Even the most conservative, pro-BF (Jack Newman, et al) put the figure of women who actually can't at around 1%. I think it's probably much higher than that, and that the extremely rare thing is for these conditions to be diagnosed (much easier to presume that mum was misinformed or not committed enough).

In any case, even 1% would make it as common an affliction as Schizophrenia or Type 1 Diabetes. Thankfully rare, but hardly unheard of.

Maybe you'll get a chance to make the point that when breastfeeding is fully normalised and valued in our culture, these conditions will be researched, diagnosed and treated, rather than dismissed as nonexistent or insignificant.

I had very little knowledge about breast feeding because so much was focussed on simply getting through the birth.

Attending LLL meetings made all the difference. I found extended breast feeding the most wonderful bonding experience with my dd - really some of my happiest times with her.

I think that's a good point suzi about HCPs having training to include reflecting on their personal experiences (eg of BFing) and how they use them when giving advice to others/ patients.

I must say I was a bit surprised when the HCP tweaked my nipples. I suppose she meant well but it was all a waste of time because apparently I have the wrong type of nipples. That was a surprise too as no one had mentioned in any of the many books and the NCT breastfeeding course I went to. You'd have thought the midwife could have looked on day 1 and saved us all the bother.

Bf'ding advice seems to me to be something that HCPs give as much from their own experience, along with their prejudices, as from any evidence-based or educated viewpoint.

And I guess this is inevitable given that most professions in contact with bf women get precious little training on the subject.

In my experience, and in that of many women I've spoken to, the advice will change from person to person with some GPs and HVs practically pushing ff, others giving well-meaning but completely out of date advice, and yet others giving partially correct information but with a dose of personal opinion.

Education for HCPs, including some reflection on how their personal experiences, good and bad, might affect the care that they give and whether that's always appropriate.

What you've said in your second post about how it can hurt at first. The only thing that kept me BF was my sheer pig-headedness that I would do it.

Also, how often they may feed initially, and that when very wee they might feed all night long. And, as said, that when newborn, they will fall asleep on the breast after 5 minutes of feeding, wake up in an hour and start again. You're not going to wake them for love or money, so you might as well go with in. In short, the reality of BF.

I would have still BF if I had been told these things beforehand, but I wold have been forewarned, and known what to expect. I felt insulted by a patriachal system that seems to think if they tell us how it is we won't do it.

I agree with others who say there's lots of prep on the practical stuff, like latch / hind milk, fore milk / what feeding on cue means.....but nobody told me bfing means effectively being with your baby a lot.

There are things which help ^when you have Baby No 1 (because for subsequent babies, it's a free for all bedlam):
-- if you like reading, bfing is a boon if you read books and MN
-- watching box set Dvds
-- having a bfing basket to hand with phone, emery board, notebook, iPad to hand

I bfed for 4 years non stop (two babies, did not tandem, but fed through most of second pregnancy) and loved it, but I had no idea in advance that I would choose not to express, so it meant for the first 6 months I was with the baby pretty much non stop and once baby was on solids, I was still with them most of the time. Not complaining. Just saying.

Haven't read all of this but some really good points, lots of experiences similar to my own.
I'd like to mention how useful some sort of clear advice about posture would have been. I tended to be so concerned about getting the baby latched on and successfully fed in the early days, I completely disregarded my own comfort and developed a lot of bad habits which I'm still paying for.
I might have used the odd extra pillow in bed, and I had one of those bf pillows cluttering up the place, but that's as far as it went, and it was all a bit haphazard as far as looking after my back was concerned.

If someone had demonstrated the wrong and the right way to sit and hold the baby so as to avoid future pain and discomfort (and I'd paid heed), life would be a lot different now.

Oh, and warning people about the endless hours some babies spend feeding, plus the futility of trying to change this by imposing a routine or keeping the baby awake at the breast.

1. In my experience and from reading the boards it's a very common experience there is a huge disparity between the promotion of BF and the actual support you can access postnatally.

There is that stat cited all the time I'm sorry I don't remember exact figures but something like 90% of mothers start off trying to BF but only 50% are stil doing so 6 weeks later (or something like that).

That says to me that we don't necessarily need new campaigns to convince women to BF, what we need is a big push for more support.

1. I personally find it sad that feeding is so controversial here on MN, and I wonder what broader lessons can be drawn from the fact that so often the BF/FF threads turn into bunfights.

Why do we judge each other? Why do we even care what other women do? Is it possible that this happens as an outgrowth of feeding campaigns and policies? Is it purely a positive thing that we've transformed personal feeding decisions into a public health issue? (in the UK that is -- clearly it's a public health issue in the developing world)

It all points to the fact that feeding your child is not just a practical issue, but an emotional one. I'm not sure that gets enough attention.

If there are mothers out there that detested cleaning and sterilising frigging bottles as much I did, just telling them there's none of that faff will have them at least trying BF

Oh and yes to cosleeping. Wouldnt still be breastfeeding otherwise... although to give her credit it was my MW who suggetsed it as I was hallucinating through lack of sleep and almost hysterical - and she told me how to do it safely - but also told me not to tell anyone that she had suggested it!

Mad....

You don't have to co sleep to bf although I did with my DS. DD prefers the cot and happily only wakes once or not even that in the night.... Both are good!

The problem with breastfeeding is it's very unique and difficult for a one size fits all approach!

I bf DS until he was 15months and DD is having a marvellous time on the boob as I write. Like others here, I've had no pain or problems with either child.

I think getting across it may hurt initially is important. But then after I'd had DD, everything blimmin' hurt .., Women should be warned that it is time consuming and tying, especially if baby refuses a bottle of expressed milk as both mine most definitely have. But then, at the same token, tell them how amazing it is; how you look at that strong healthy baby in front of you and think 'I did that!'. It's the most holistically satisfying feeling i think I've ever felt (don't tell DH )

I think a lot more help should be provided in Days 1-4 when you are waiting for the milk to come and you do worry and get tense that it's not coming and baby's going to get very poorly indeed. HCP's need to remember that thanks to hormones and exhaustion, all rationale has gone out the window at this juncture, and you honestly believe something dreadful might happen as you're milk isn't 'through' yet. I rang my maternity unit in desperation as DD had done a very potent wee at 3am worried she was dehydrated on Day 3. Just being told to ring back tomorrow if I was still worried wasn't what I needed to hear. I needed to be told to sit tight, and this time tomorrow I'd have more milk than Cleopatra's Pool Guy and, importantly, all this was NORMAL.

I think there should greater encouragement of peer-to-peer support too. I have helped two friends this summer get back on track with bf as they didn't get enough support from their HCP's. For some women, it does take quite some time to get it right. But of course, time is money and we all know the NHS doesn't have that much anymore... I also believe that there needs to be some sort of support or education (for want of a better word) for our DH/DP's. My DH has been an incredible support, but somewhat blindly so. The importance of breastfeeding should not just be geared at expectant mothers. And the importance and positive effects of a good support network for the breastfeeding mum should be shouted from the rooftops.

And as futile and patronising as some may find it, I personally really responded well to praise over my bf-Ing. If someone tells me i'm amazing I go from to and keep on keeping on, even when I've had 12hrs sleep in five days.

To conclude, I basically think we ought to be told it how it is. It's a 24/7 job, often relentless, sometimes lonely, sometimes boring, sometimes deliciously peaceful (espesh when the in laws are over and frazzling your brain the prices of beans in Aldi and you can jut scoop up baby and make your excuses, even if you normally don't care who sees you do it); your body is still out on loan and it CAN switch your libido off for a wee while; But it's free! And it's easy! And instant! And it's not forever

I think this thread shows exactly what women are talking about

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1264079-5-things-I-wish-Id-known-before-I-started-breastfeeding/AllOnOnePage

For me what worked was the breastfeeding support group and Mumsnet,
What could have been better - telling the realities of breastfeeding! - cluster feeding, mastitis, blocked ducts, all nighters etc, and checking for high palates/tongue ties without being fobbed off.

I swear that nearly all of my knowledge and therefore ability to continue breastfeeding has come from Mumsnet. Knowledge is key...

I think there needs to be much more information, in Emma's Diary 2011 breastfeeding covers just two pages, one more page than when my DS was born in 2006 though. There needs to be information about feeding. I think the breast is best message needs to change. More practical advice is needed like:-

If you find it difficult to hold your baby, place one or two pillows on your lap first.

You can feed for hours like this and if I didn't use pillows my boobs would hurt, as it is I can't really feel the sucking (industrial boobs)

Sorry just to add, as above. I didn't start with any wish to co-sleep and was also worried it would be dangerous but I actually ended up doing it as I can't imagine how I could have bfed a baby every two hours without co-sleeping. If I had to lift her in and out of her cot every time I think I would literally have dropped her through sheer exhaustion.

In my family and friends the bf knowledge had been lost as no one had bfed for a while. Had I relied on family I would have given up on day 1, due to all sorts of misconceptions (e.g. the baby is not eating she will get sick). Then I had latch problems but health professionals did not recognise them and seemed to suggest that pain is normal at the beginning - Mumsnet saved me! I got so much useful advice I was able to identify the problem and get over it (still bf now at 5.5 months).

I think the most important thing about bf is for women to find out again that just because it's natural it doesn't mean it's going to just happen all by itself. All sorts of things need sorting out/knowing about and you need someone to tell you about them.

I'm afraid I don't have any thoughts on weaning as haven't started yet, but I think I might try both purees and BLW - can you do that? Will give it a go anyway!

I'm going to be controversial here but if you have never breastfed a baby how the hell can you know what it feels like? Yes you may have been a midwife for 20 years but you have no idea what a baby feels like as it feeds.