Ahoy hoy mnhq - you aren't going to do anything about AIBU, are you?

I dislike the overuse of the word bully on mn though. There are some extremely rude and unpleasant posts, and some unjustifiable personal attacks. I would say that there us very little actual hounding of posters, because people generally don't tolerate it. Yet bullying is often a charge bandied about by an OP or their odd "I'm going to be different here" supporter in response to vociferous and near unanimous disagreement. Yet disagreement is sure to happen on a board concerned with debate. I'm never sure whether to feel cross or annoyed when somebody comes over all priggish and starts using phrases like "Shame on you", and "Mumsnet at its worst".

A lot of the changes here can be put down to the growth of the site. There are quite simply more stupid people around- whether they be huffy OPs, sanctimonious types who wish to carve out a piece of moral highground, MRA trolls or just rude unpleasant folk. I genuinely don't see a lot of what could really be called bullying though.

I do get what you are saying. Maybe the problem here is I am unutterably pedantic I can be like that sometimes, I'm afraid. I genuinely don't get how something - some inanimate thing - can be responsible, even partially, for how people choose to behave, or that removing something will make people change their personality.

See, when you say that there are things on a road that make it dangerous in itself and affect even good drivers, I think - How many accidents happen if you close the road? none. Because it's the people driving down the road that cause the accidents. So the road in itself is not dangerous because it has no power to cause harm without drivers driving down it.

BUT - if you close the dangerous road on the grounds that it causes accidents - will there be no accidents elsewhere? No. There will still be loads. Because it's about the people. It's not the space, it's not the road, it's all about the people.

I get the symbolism. Remove AIBU to show you all that we don't tolerate this kind of spite on here. I do get that. It just won't work. imo. people who want to sit behind their pc pouring venom will still do so.

But let's not forget that that vast majority of people who come here are nice people, funny, kind, clever. Most people who come here aren't trying to hurt people.

But we could and should all do more to challenge those who are.

Dangerous roads can be those with poor visibility, blind corners etc or a poor surface. There are still bad drivers who can make any road dangerous. But that doesn't mean we need to leave the dangerous roads in their current form.

They can be bad for any driver, however good...iyswim?

Fair enough.

I guess we don't then. or maybe I don't understand what you are saying, because I am reading what you are saying and it truly looks to me to be basically the same thing I am saying

however, I don't think that a page on the internet has any power to change who people are. Same as when people talk of a 'dangerous road' - well, tarmac poses no danger at all. people cause the danger.

If mnhq deleted AIBU. poooof. It's gone. What would happen?

Nothing.

Those who want to give someone a kicking would continue to do so. It wouldn't change them one little bit.

They don't do it because there is a space on the net called AIBU. They do it because they are sat behind their computer, where it's nice and safe for them to be an utter bitch in a way they never would in real life, because there are actual consequences there (like a smack in the gob!)

I just don't think that we need to do anything about AIBU. It isn't the problem.

I don't remember MN being full of aibu type threads before aibu was started. There were the usual ones,. of course but they were the nasturtiums among the spring onions, or whatever it is, when you plant stuff in other stuff and it stops the nasties taking over.

It was dilute. I think putting it in one place gives it more power

what janepumpkin (janebirkin?) said, and bibbs.

For once I disagree partially with Hecate (eloquently put though Hec, I like the bit about you're not a bully)- there are some people who would seek out an empty room at a party, and certainly many who'd seek out quiet rooms where one can have a meaingful conversation with like-minded people (about camping, arts and crafts, food etc).

AIBU is the festering pustule on the underside of MN- I hate it. It is hypocritically incredibly judgemental and snobbish of me to say this but I don't like the type it brings here.

So there.

Having said that, AIBU does a fairly reasonable job of corraling them all in one place. It cheapens MN when they sneak out into other topics though

No, not really, I don't think we do. You don't think AIBU is a problem. But you agree that it's possible to create an environment condusive to bullying...I think that's exactly what AIBU is, and why it has no place on a support forum, or indeed anywhere.

But yes bullying stems from individuals, we agree there

Every school has bullies in it, not all schools legitimise it

I think we are actually in agreement, Jane, really - aren't we? I mean, the core of the problem - Bullies bully because they are bullies. Only a bully would take advantage of a space where they feel it is 'ok' for them to be unkind. Therefore the problem is with them. They are bullies.

I think it is possible to create a 'culture' of bullying. That is probably what is happening here.

but nobody who is not a bully would fall in with that culture and actively be a spiteful bitch to someone.

What you do have is an unwillingness to put yourself in the line of fire when you see it.

I do stand by my view that the problem is not the section of a website entitled AIBU, but it is the attitudes of the people who use that, how they choose to use it and how they choose to interact with others.

But yes, we change that by challenging them when they do it.

Time and time again I see 'well you knew you'd be in for a lashing when you posted in AIBU, so it's your fault,'....' you're pathetic if you can't take it' being the implication.

Every single day this is said on AIBU

on the whole people don't tell the bullies their behaviour is unacceptable, though, and hence it becomes the accepted standard of behaviour. I admit to being guilty of this myself sometimes because RL is more important than an internet site. I don't have the time to get into long debates with bullies about their NPD or other disorders. It is sad that what used to be a great site for really informed debate has lost/ is losing that.

totally agree with goosey

'It's good because it keeps the bullies away from the other topics.'

But it doesn't, MrsC. It spills over. And people still bully on other topics. But they then go back to their stomping ground over on AIBU and feel that maybe they were justified, because it goes down just fine in AIBU so why not everywhere.

iyswim
The original plan was to put them all in one place but it hasn't done that and has had the opposite effect.

'You can create all the spaces that you like where it is seen that bullying is 'ok'

Only bullies will take advantage of those spaces.'

Well yes, and they do. That's what I'm trying to say.

[shrug] The bullies are equaly balanced by the twats who don't listen when people tell them they are being twats but simply cry "bully!"

Also, look at the threads where a poster complains about the swearing. These are not always in AIBU but you can guarantee that within about 5 posts someone will tel the OP to fuck off and the language will deteriorate further. Anyone holding the OPs viewed is ridiculed as being a prude and told that other posters have every right to swear as much as they like, wherever they like because this is a website for adults. "bullies" are everywhere if you look close enough.

It's good because it keeps the bullies away from the other topics. Imagine if all the proper twats that hang out in AIBU had no where to go, so went around picking on those asking for advice in other topics, especially sensitive topics like relationships.

That's the difference, I think. Other topics for advice, AIBU for judgement.

God, please no more emoticons! I find that they stifle discussion. People can say truly vile things and put a after it and that makes it all right or others can respond with a or similar and avoid telling the poster why what they have said is unacceptable.

I agree the problem is not AIBU, the problem is bullying. However since the AIBU topic has been here the site has attracted more bullies and less people prepared to stand up to bullying elsewhere on the site. It's still just about possible to find good information on the site but there is less of it. The site has wider appeal now and that's good for the owners' pockets, they aren't going to change that. However deleting the threads after 3 months would at least give some sort of message about their value and perhaps indicate that they haven't sold out completely.

Perhaps there also needs to be a you are being a cow emoticon (or a contempt one) for those who don't wish to stand up to the bullies in any other way. It isn't enough to have

bullying may well be seen to be 'allowed'

I don't bully.

You don't bully.

Why is that?

It is because we are not bullies.

You can create all the spaces that you like where it is seen that bullying is 'ok'

Only bullies will take advantage of those spaces.

I agree with Jane - it has legitimised bullying. People go on to AIBU threads looking for a good argument in a way that they don't with chat - it is accepted that argument (as opposed to reasoned debate) is invited. I don't recall hectoring posters being acceptable in the same way before AIBU.

Of course the site has changed over the years but I think AIBU has had an impact on who the site now appeals to. On some days there is little parenting advice at all and multiple threads that read like Daily Mail editorials.

'It's like - a child is being bullied because they, I dunno, they're fat. (like me ) do you say this bullying is happening because this child is here, so we will remove this child and there will be no more bullying?

Or do you say this child is being bullied because people here are bullies. If we take away this child, they will simply find another victim.'

Neither. What I am saying is the child is being bullied because bullying is being allowed, given its own room, or forum topic...and in a different setting, there would be more self moderation. Bullying and rudeness and reactionary gobbiness ought to be looked down on, not encouraged...it seems MNHQ likes the huge traffic on AIBU, thus my comment about selling out.

It depends how they want the site to be seen. I think it's shortsighted and directly in opposition to the stated ethos which is 'to make parents' lives easier'

Ooh goody, for the first time ever I'm on the right thread at the right time and I get to post:

I agree with hecate.

That's another MN cherry popped. [hgrin]

I realise that bullies/people will act that way if they want to wherever they are, Hec.

However if you have a setting which legitimises it, you are onto a sticky wicket.

Your analogy doesn't quite work, for me - sorry. I think it's more like having a place where the fat kid is put in a room and the bullies given free reign to have a go at him or her, as long as they are in that room, the fat kid should have known better than to go in there...

oh unless you mean that everyone puts every bloody conversation in there.

You mean that, don't you?

That's annoying. But what mnhq need to to is some serious pruning. there are far too many subtopics. It's messy. So everyone goes where everyone else is.

It's like holding a party in a hotel with a thousand rooms. People want to be with people. So you can either have one person in each room - boring. Or several people in some of the rooms and several rooms empty - slightly less boring. Or you can have a cracking shindig in the lobby with everyone - bucket loads of fun!

Are people going to go into an empty room? No. They are going to seek out the room with the most people.

I object to AIBU because it sucks traffic from the rest of the site and seems to mean that people are allowed to be aggressive.

It would be fine if people just used it for proper AIBU questions but that isn't the case.

I would prefer it if threads were moved from AIBU and chat to the appropriate topics, this increasing traffic elsewhere and making the rest of the site more appealing.

AIBU does not make people behave in any way.

People make people behave in a particular way.

So if someone is a total cow because there's a space on the site where they feel they can get away with it - that has nothing to do with that space and everything to do with that person.

If you took away AIBU - do you think such people would be sweetness and light fluffy hunny bunnies?

No they would not. Because it is not about AIBU.

It's like - a child is being bullied because they, I dunno, they're fat. (like me ) do you say this bullying is happening because this child is here, so we will remove this child and there will be no more bullying?

Or do you say this child is being bullied because people here are bullies. If we take away this child, they will simply find another victim.

Honestly - the problem here is not a page on a site that says AIBU.