Let's talk about sex toys (well, ads for them on Mumsnet), please

There are people of many different religions on here...how would they feel about this? Muslims for instance? Would this not alienate them?

But having another poster argue with me is different to being faced with Adult Products when I log on.

I like the full-on conversation....it offers me a mental stimulation that I can't get in real life.

It is a safe place....because if things get nasty, there are always sensible Mnrs to bring things down or report.

To clarify....there is nothing wrong with sex toys...in their place. Which imo is in sex shops. Not on MN

Late to this but a "no" from me to all inc Ann Summers.

this is not a "safe place" it is a place where posters rip apart anyone they disagree with! I alwyas feel that people patronise me when I post, as if my views, just because some people disagree with them have no validity, and as if I am in some way intellectually inferior, which is strange given my background. ( Post graduate, health sector management, qualification in counselling and charity trustee, married for nearly 30 years and utterly faithful)

I think Gumballcharm has it spot on:

"this is safe place"

fair enough if you don't get off on sex itself - no need to try and make out that those that do (without the need for speculums and am dram) have something wrong with them. i think it is the need for butt plugs and leg spreaders that implies sexual dysfunction rather than not needing to stick things up their arse and be tied in knots in order to enjoy sex.

seriously - do we want mn to be a place that sells but plugs, vaginas in cans etc?

would MN be willing to put up a warning page for people coming on to the site saying warning you are entering a site with links to graphic sexual content?

Higgle I think that just as you seemed to blatantly misunderstand on the other thread, where you confused adult women wearing schoolgirl outfits with schoolgirls themselves dressing up, you are doing the same thing here.

You seem to equate a dislike of porn and porn advertising, with a puritanical view of sex and consequently, your posts are extremely patronising.

People who love sex can still hate porn and misogyny.

I don't think it's puritanical to object to sex aids and BDSM gear. I do think it's puritanical to object to other people enjoying them, and downright to think that this necessarily means that they're fucked up.

Soupy - it is precisely because of MN's editorial policy that I do post here. And no, I'm not going to be pathetically grateful for that and not complain when they fuck up.

I think it's a bad idea. I agree that many of the stres that stock sex toys also stock sexist and questionable costumes and I just don't want to see ads for vibrators etc when I come here...this is safe place...a home from home.

Bear in mind that very few other sites (any?) would let their users have any say in what advertising they accept.

Stop lambasting MNHQ and be grateful that you do actually get to have your say and that your opinions matter.

I don't think that anyone would say that they in themselves constitute good sex, they can, at certain times and in certain ways enhance sexual experience or provide variety for people who are alone. Except in the world of financial services ( and that is where the plastic is evil) no one is saying we should depend on it.

Helen - have to agree with Aye and windsor - someone made the decision to accept this ad in Relationships only.

So are you saying you have no control over (what is effectively) an editorial decision? Someone made the decision to take the ad from LH and part of selling the space would have been about the placement.

If MN management are trying to say that they aren't aware of what ads their sales execs are taking or where they are offering space for sale, then you need to review your procedures IMO. It's not good enough to say 'Oh sorry, we didn't realise'.

Toys is actually what the manufacturers and advertisers "chose" to call sex aids, and it has slipped into mainstream usage. There is a huge marketing effort going on to normalise these things and even to try and make people believe that they actually need them. There's a post over in the Feminism section about a piece of market research on that exact subject.

It's not puritanical to object to sex aids and BDSM gear. What sort of a fucked up view of sexuality does someone have to have anyway to think that these things are what constitute "good" sex?

Mind you I was reading a review on LoveHoney of someone who'd purchased a Fleshlight of the non-arsehole variety, who'd been wanking for two hours and couldn't orgasm because it had numbed his penis so much. The people on the forum kindly advised him to put it down.

How is it that your views are 'common sense' and people's who oppose you are not?!

And the issue that most of seem to be anti is the link with porn, rather more than the 'toys' themselves.

"I don't like these items. I don't like them being promoted as toys when they are a pleasure giving device of an intimate nature. Toys are what children use in play.

Sex is not a game and often the use of these things is not harmless. iN fact the promotion of them could be described as harmful to all women."

But toys is what most people, including women chose to call them, sex should be fun, sex should be a game ( in the right context) Who are you to define what words we should use or to impose a puritanical view of sex on this site? Wasn't manipulation of the language one of the instruments of social control in 1984?

A point that is very properly made on Mumsnet is that the users are not one totality. There are people on here posting that it is gross to spend lots of money on clothes on one thread, and on another cogitating over which handbag over £1k is the nicest. We must never assume that just because we are members we speak for anyone else. Of course we all become more vociferous over something we really don't like ( for me amateur puppy breeding) than things that we do. I'm really shocked that there has been so much "anti" activiety against an advertiser whose goods are often mentioned and ercommended on individual threads, and who seem to provide a good range of reasonably priced toys that people should feel any more ashamed of looking at than anything else. Goodness, years ago you were not even allowed to advertise sanitary products on TV. I don't think my views are unusual, illogical or immoral, and in thei interests of balance and commonsense I'm putting them forward.

It is totally different. I have no problem with people discussing anything sexually, including things I think are exploitative and abusive. Because it is a discussion. People can challenge, discuss, clarify etc etc. But advertising is not that. It is unchallengeable endorsement.

There isn't anything feminist about the commercialisation of sex, which includes the sale sex aids, sex outfits and BDSM gear. It's terrible the way the sex industry has hijacked feminist theory to promote its own products.

You don't actually have to buy anything to have good sex. I always imagine that the people who need t spend money on it are probably having shit sex lives or are involved in something extremely dodgy e.g. rope bondage.

But Helen you're referring to the placement of these ads in Relationships as though they just mysteriously appeared. Obviously a Mumsnet employee made an active decision to do it and thought that management would approve it.

Well maybe that's not surprising given that Justine herself seems to be conflicted about her sexual politics, given that she posted on the other thread that she could see nothing wrong with nurse outfits, or that they reinforced a sexist image of a health professional.

Huh? "If" you run the ad? But you did run the ad. In Relationships. And only in that section.

Why did you canvass about McDonalds ads before running their ads but didn't for these ones?

Hi Soup, I think they do care, actually, but as you say, customer gender is impossible to police online.

I guess my point of view is that bondage between consenting adults is fine. I see Sh! as pro, not anti-feminist - reclaiming a pro-sex space for women. I'd like to emphasise again that I do not think the same about LH. I think this is a coherent feminist viewpoint.

I would be happy to see ads from them, but would be equally happy not to if most posters would rather they weren't shown.

But the thing is, as sarah said, we are posters are individuals. If I wish to use the word C*t in a thread, it is up to the adults to challenge or not challenge. MN has always been self governing without the need for moderators, and I like that. MNHQ has boundaries in place, but that is it, not hard and fast rules other than the obvious. But, saying that, it would not be OK for MNHQ to say, well some people use it so lets put up an advert with the word "C*t in it, to promote the use of it. MN can set the tone, the morals and ideation that it wants to portray as a whole. And individuals within it can govern themselves.

If people want to have a debate about sex toys, that is ok, why not, but that does not mean that MNHQ has to promote it.

That was initially my view, Collaborate - that it would be hypocritical to refuse to take advertising for a sex site whilst we happily discuss the delights of bum sex of a Friday.

But, actually, what we don't do here is porn. And sites like LH are perpetuators of porn.

Sorry, they are not paying to promote...