MNHQ .. Can we talk about disability bashing?

but if people are referred to as spaz or retard or cunt or nigger etc it is deleted, it doesn't need to be a personal attack, those are words that are disallowed.

however what happened in the last few days was that someone posted to express their disgust that their husband called them a spastic, and everyone agreed so vociferously that he was an arsehole that she got pissy about it and went on a wind-up herself. was she seeking attention with the word spastic? absolutely. should it have been asterisked by mn? i think so. but zap the whole thread? i'm not so sure.

likewise the freakshow thread, imo that post should not have been deleted. however also imo the poster should have acted like a grown up and apologised properly. but do we zap her for being immature and arsey, when she clearly felt very wounded by the response she got?

i mean don't get me wrong, i'd zap 'em all, i don't give a fuck, it's not my website. i'm with pagwatch on this one... wanker... zaaaap.

but if people are NOT using these words to offend and harm (in fact technically the freakshow poster was speaking up for disabled people who she felt were being exploited) then what? what precisely do we ban, and when do we act?

i have definitely used the words freak show to talk about television programmes that parade small children with disabilities in the past, where appropriate (the problem yesterday was the the poster had picked the wrong show) and i will continue to do so. in fact more or less had i posted what catmilk did yesterday i would have got away with a few s and some wot u on abouts, because people do know that i am not for the most part a wanker.

i think MN must be allowed to use their discretion, tbh, because this whole place is so bandwagonesque at the moment that all it takes is for one influential poster to start yelling and the whole mob descends. i've seen it on the natalie cassidy and the BTBD threads recently, and been pretty shocked.

oh, and poof isn't banned. not so long as you are pretending to talk about furniture while coming out with a load of offensive, stereotypical shite about gay men fucking.

growingstrawberries a lot of people have left or stick to the sn topic, as they believe it to be safe(yeah ok) I rarely post about dd now, I think it is wrong to share about a person with sn on a site that treats such people with contempt
tbh I don't like comparing disablist words with swearing. I would hate to see this serious thread bogged down with a debate about swearing.
BUT..... mn hq do ask people to change posting names if they offend, but threads are allowed to offend, confusing, double standards and wrong

maybe it is time to give up this idea that MN is a site where you can say whatever you like.

it isn't.

it is policed for certain words and terms.

I agree with Leningrad - if it were my site, i would draw a line and say "no. not this. it will not happen here" - this is already done for other hate terms.

it would not mean the end of the ability to use the word cunt. and, tbh, I have always found the endless harping on about freedom to use expressions and words in whatever way people choose to be a little disingenuous anyway.

the whole cunt argument was just a band wagon rolling past. lots of people jumped on, because it suited them to do so, and they were a bit bored, or whatever.

not so many people leaping up now, are there? and I would argue that there are more people being hurt/offended/upset/having to walk away from support because the endless sniping cannot be ignored.

I think it is time MNHQ actually took control and responsibility - too often they get swayed by "we will do what the majority say" - as in the cunt protest. well this time, it is not good enough.

what if the majority (in this case) protest for the right to use mong, spaz, retard, etc? sadly, it is entirely possible. but it would still be wrong.

the SN section on here has always been such a good resource.

look at it now. so many posters no longer post there (and on MN in general about SN issues) because of the lack of support form MN as a whole. because time and again they have been let down. because time and again they have been hurt by the majority remaining silent while a vocal minority name call, snipe and criticise.

and yet, when anyone complains, they are told over and over "no, we value your input - you have changed the way I think about things. you have opened my eyes. without your posts I would know nothing about X"

sadly, all too often, this seems to be a one way street, and not much is given back when these posters are in need themselves.

"It isn't about a small minority of people who are 'sensitive' to certain language. It's about the fact that some words are no longer acceptable to use."
And there is the legal aspect to consider as well, of course.

maybe we should all name change and have spaz or retard in our names, see if that is noticed.
I don't like seeing teh word cunt.
so I don't open the thread or ignore,
but I think there is no comparison to a thread with cunt in it and the disablist posts.

I did ask mn hq to look at this thread again and post but was told that they had already posted!]
that is how much they care.

They do police the site for certain words. As they should. Hate words like n, homophobic words like pfter etc. This is about recognising that more words should be on that list. Words that target specific groups and are recognised by the police as such should be dealt with. If people posted that someone was 'acting like a pfter/pki/reard' which one would currently be allowed to stand? All* are hateful terms that are/were shouted at asian/gay/SN people in the street and playground. Only with the last one would you ever get people arguing that they didn't mean it to be offensive because they weren't saying it like that.

This isn't about swearing, which offends some people's sensibilities. It isn't about a small minority of people who are 'sensitive' to certain language. It's about the fact that some words are no longer acceptable to use. Full stop. If someone used them unthinkingly and was pulled up on it, fine. But this is about people deliberately using the terms to cause offense, or continuing to use them when they've been told it's not acceptable.

i quite agree with you, narky, regarding this thing of 'well if someone's just told you that they are uncomfortable with/offended by a word, why keep using it?'

BUT it has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not the way MN works. i am in no sense drawing a line between the offence caused by cunt names and the offence caused by disablist language, fear not, but the day when MNers changed their names to cunt names to campaign for the freedom to offend was a watershed i think.

HQ wanted cunt names gone, and instead they increased. that said to me that the matter of offence is a community matter, not an MNHQ one. so it seems unfair to put the burden back onto them to police the site for words alone, rather than, as they do now, let threads play out a bit before deciding whether to act.

Puffin
Exactly. If someone were to tell me that a word that I had used in innocence was offensive to many people - eg spastic or retard - then I would stop using it. It is not as if we have a limited vocabulary in the English language. There are plenty other words that have the same meaning as that which I intended.

And yes, the comparison is not right.

"AIBU to think those on DLA are benefit scroungers" vs "AIBU to think a black man should not be allowed to be a teacher" - why should the latter be so abhorrent that it is deleted and the former not?

EvenNarkyPuffin - quite. Take away the legal/moral aspects, I always thought it was common courtesy to avoid needless offence. Seems that common courtesy is thought too boring these days

And it's a false equivalent anyway, isn't it? I mean surely the equivalent would be "mum worried her son might have SN" or "mum concerned that her NT child is going to a school where most children are SN, will she get an appropriate education?" - both of which would be entirely valid, and entirely different from the threads in question. If a thread had been started which said "all gay people are paedophilic perverts who should be made to undergo shock therapy" that would be very clear-cut, right?

I have difficulty understanding anyone who, once people have explained that a word is offensive to them, deliberately continue to use that word. Even if you personally never thought of it as offensive and still don't, why would you want to continue to upset someone? And the 'we always said it' defence is so ridiculous. In the past a lot of things were said that are no longer considered acceptable. These words can be added to the list.

Use the acid test.
Would you like that comment to be made about you/your lifestyle?
Would you like your child to be called that name? Or what they suggest to happen to your child (eugenics)?

If no, delete.

Coming late to this thread, but wanted to add my thoughts.

I did not see the thread in Relationships as being provocative, but perhaps my radar is not so well developed.

It is so difficult sometimes, to see how patiently posters point out to those who use words like this that they are offensive, only to have the "oh ffs" brigade appear.

While I agree that offensive posts are sometimes better left so that everyone can see what a wanker the poster was, it is only right that disabilist posts are removed.

Potoroo - I'm so sorry to hear what you've been through.
Brownsugarshortbread - thank you for bringing up the matter for discussion and attention. I will look out for any threads (even those I don't plan to follow or post in) and report if I see those offensive words - or phrases/sentences. It's a timely reminder.

TheHumanCatapult - had to read through or skim through quite a lot of threads to find your post, but I agree with you - disability bashing threads ought to be deleted just like racist or homophobic ones are. What about some threads where various posters have actually been quite intimidating/bullying in tone - those are left (actually, most of the offensive race or homophobic ones I came across didn't even get deleted by MNHQ - I am just assuming nobody noticed them or reported them). I often found it so distressing or bizarre (or both) that a parenting forum could have such belligerent debating tones that I just logged off and did not want to even look at the website for a long time. I really feel for the fellow mums and dads here who have been on the receiving end of some awful prejudice and bullying in real life. It isn't justified on MN. And it's about time we phased out and came down hard on posters here who are actually using the words "spaz" or "retard" (other than in quotation marks to express their disagreement with said quote) believing that they are cool or "with it" - as parents we should know better.

Thanks Brian and Brownsugar. Yes, the statement is a massive victory. I cried a bit when the lovely assistant SN head from the council rang to tell me.

that was a lovely post potoroo and my heart goes out to you. Just wanted to say I will be thinking of you and your family.

I have de-lurked to post my support. Hope I'm not coming in too late.

I am an immigrant, part of a mixed race couple and a feminist working in a male dominated environment. At various times in my life I have been told that immigrants are beneift scroungers nicking British people's jobs, had a few racist terms chucked at me and the kids, and been asked if I slept with the boss to get my job. Clearly offensive, but I can laugh it off now.

But nothing has prepared me for being the mother of a child with SN.

In the last 2 years my world has tunred upside down. I have lost friends, but admittedly gained new ones. I have had my parenting brought into question numerous times. I have (and still do) feel guilty that I somehow caused this, or that I am not doing enough. In order to get a statement I have had to catalogue several years of my child's failings. I have pages and pages of reports from his teachers that I just can't bring myself to read. My whole well being some days hangs on whether he has had a good or bad day. You would think I would be immune to it now, but every time he has a "bad" day, it tears my soul a little more.

In my circle of friends who have children with SN I have seen relationships stressed to breaking point, and often not surviving. I have seen parents breaking down from stress. Hell, my marriage is falling apart now as a direct result of it all.

And you know what the worst bit is? I have tons of emotional support. We got a statement of 27 hrs. We are in a council that is supportive of disability, and a school that would kick out anyone that used any of the words being thrown around here. I still struggle, and there are plenty of parents who have nowhere near the support we do.

I don't have the emotional energy left over to educate people on why using spaz or mong is not on. There is plenty of education to be had by reading the SN boards, and just having a bit of decency and compassion.

And one last thing about intent: it's often said that the p* word is not offensive in Australia, and as an Aussie, I can agree to a certain extent that is true. However, that doesn't mean I can use that word in the UK or on an international site and whine that it's OK, because it's not my intent to offend.