Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

buzziing off to read those links, meanwhile, please tell me how my not employing domestic workers will help the situation in any way.

in the UAE the wages maids are paid makes it impossible for them to do anything with their one day off.

the minimum wage per month is something like 750 dirhams plus food and board. £1 = @5 DHMs.

So bragging on here that you pay a maid 2x or 3x the local minimum wage still puts them in a position where they can't do anything with their days off.

Apart from those that taught in the International School as teachers (teaching assistants were paid in local money) I didn't meet any expats earning "foreign" wages. They all earned local wages

Yes they risk having nothing on a low wage, but it's a hell of a lot easier to go from a low wage to a low wage than from an extortionately high one to a low (or no) wage.

And when I say extortionate I mean just that. When we lived in Zimbabwe had we converted our joint wage (when I had my better paid job) we would have been earning £187 a month between us. (exH was a teacher in a local school, I worked as a TA in the international school for a while). Both full time wages. No "top-ups"

We lived comfortably on that wage, we didn't have a huge house, in fact it was a tiny 2 bedroom cottage which would probably have fitted in its entirety into my rather modest terraced lounge and dining room that I have now. but we were comfortable (and had we not had a wedding to pay for an a visa and airfares to buy we would have been much better off). We certainly weren't flush, but very comfortable (until I lost my job - but that's an entirely different thread ).

Then a few years ago, when the Zim$ crashed - we used to sent out £40 a month to my exFIL - he lived in his own (large) 3 bedroom house, but that £40 maintained the entire house, and bills, and food, and left money over for him to make his frequent trips to the village

To have paid domestic staff a UK wage would be crazy out there.

I didn't read the original thread - so I have no idea of the details/country being referred to. I am just stating my experiences from the country I lived in where having domestic staff was the norm for both expats and locals alike if they earned anything more than a very low wage.

While many domestic staff coveted the jobs with the expats because of the slightly higher wages, equally many were too scared to take on on because of the job insecurity. At least with someone local that lives there permanently, unless they lost their job and as long as you did the job well you knew you're job was pretty much safe for the long term. No worries about when your employer was going to pack their bags and leave, leaving you out of a job and hoping that if someone came to replace them then they'd take you on.

dittany, the employer is earning a uk wage because it is what they would be able to earn in their home country. Those countries would not be able to attract their skills unless companies paid competitive international rates. This makes sense because the employer is only posted to that country for a limited period of time and will have to return to the UK where they will rely on proceeds of the expatriate salary they were earning - eg. savings, car, furniture etc.

Workers employed by expats are often the best paid in these countries. There is no need to pay these workers uk wages as their cost of living is no where near the cost of living here. In real terms they would likely end up earning more than their employer?

Insight

I find it interesting that just because you are being and supposedly your friends are bding kind to your maid means it is ok to hire maids under the medieval employment practices which exist in some parts of the world.

You are still benefiting from a system which is inherently corrupt. This sort of corruption brought about the boycott of South Africa and the end of apartheid.

Some maids like construction labourers are brought to the UAE etc by fixers who for a fee bring them into the country with promises of work as secretaries for example then they end up indebted with the fixer's fee (illegal) in work as domestic help, (cleaners, maids, doing other people's ironing in homes offices and malls, wherever ) and that is just a part of the abuse. oh their passports taken off them till they have paid their way etc.

A lot of westerners choose to hire a contract company to do their cleaning. This system is rife with the sort of abuse I have mentioned. Or you can get a catalogue from a hire agency and pick you own maid kinda like you can get a mail order bride. it really is a luck of the draw who you get for better and for worse.

maid banned&st=0 this thread makes good reading if you are curious of how the maid thing can go sour even when you are a nice employer. And gives insight into the mindset of lots of expats out there.

It is indentured slavery.

Dont know exactly the situation with ops Houseboy,but some do go home every three years,but they go for 3 months.My housemaid goes home twice a year,when we go.She goes for 2 weeks.We pay her air fair.Better all round as then i am not housemaid less for 3 months.Some though dont want to go home as often as there is pressure on them to bring presents.Does cost a fortune for them.Relatives shun them if dont bring tampax,wash powder,soap etc.What am trying to say is unless live here and know situation,cant judge

I don't think that usig the UK minimum wage is a legitimate measure of a fair wage in a different economy.

Surely the economy in the country used as an example would not be able to support a cleaner being paid more than a doctor for example?? Why would people in that country then go to university to become doctors if they could earn far more as a housemaid?

I don't see a problem with employing domestic staff as long as they are paid fairly, treated fairly and respected as an employee not a status symbol or an excuse to patronise.

I have worked as a cleaner in this country when I have been made redundant before.
The money was minimum wage and fed us.
The attitude towards me as a cleaner was awful though. It was assumed by my employers that I was of lower intelligence because of the job that I was doing.

That is an attitude that is prevalent in lots of countries I think and that is what needs to change.

Who are we to decide how often an employee should see their family for example. The op in the original thread stated that her "houseboy" was only allowed to go home once every three years.
That is awful, that is what needs to change.

eh? so you think that expats in foreign countries should pay domestic staff UK wages?

What's wrong with paying them the local wage for that job?

Unless you're talking about the handful of expats that get paid in foreign currency??

But even then it's not as simple as "well I get my wage in US$'s/£'s so I'll pay my staff the UK minimum wage" Expats move on so from having more money than they're able to spend to risk then suddenly finding themselves with nothing, or having to maintain a standard of living that simply isn't possible on a local wage. There's stiff "competition" for expat domestic work as they do often pay slightly more than the normal rates of pay for same domestic work. Some domestic staff are lucky and manage to get work with the new incomers, but not all.

Buzz,i am sure that there are Western Expatsthat have treated there housemaid/boy as you say,but having lived here since i was 8,have never come accross it myself.Yes,i know would happen behind closed doors,but most my friends housemaids i have known as llong as them and chat to them when i go round.Also is house maids romour network,so word soon passes round and Cynthia(my housemaid)would tell me.Think also good housemaid highly sought after and hastle to go through sponsershipe paper work.Also if know good with your children why would you send home for no good reason

smallorange, I agree, these cases are uncovered every few years and are truly shocking. I think that is the main reason why the Government reintroduced legislation in the UK earlier this year to make slavery illegal - yes, that's right in the UK, this year.

Friend worked in a village in Malawi teaching biology and was horrified that she was expected to employ a gardener and housekeeper. She was quickly taken aside and told that the village expected her to employ these people so that they - and the village- vould benefit a little from her wages.

Different perspective I guess. That said, I read a very disturbing artivle about young filipina women basically treated as slaves and abused horribly by families in britain.

Interesting subject. Certainly will never enjoy a holiday in Dubai after reading about the Bangladeshi slaves that built it - and made a ton of money for developers and holiday companies.

It was the "norm" for everyone we knew (hardly knew any expats - they were mostly Zimbabweans we knew) that was on a moderate to high wage. Plus many people on lower incomes had distant family members "employed" as maids, they would get their accommodation and meals (usually eating with the family - those circumstances) provided and in return would do the maids work. We didn't have her for long as I lost my job and exH's didn't even cover the rent let alone pay for a maid.

Our maid didn't live with us, we only had a tiny cottage (with a very leaky roof - she used to laugh at our leaky roof and say that despite the fact that her house was smaller and not in such a nice area etc etc at least her roof didn't leak like ours).

We paid her the going rate, she would sweep, (hand) wash the clothes, iron, clean etc etc. She didn't have to do any childcare or cooking though (as we didn't have children and we cooked for ourselves).

We only had a tiny garden, but she begged us to employ her brother as a gardener as he was desperate for work and has he had no experience as a domestic staff was struggling to find anyone to take him on . He got a fraction of what he should have been paid, but I know that after he left us we gave him a reference for another gardeners job which he got (and was paid proper wages).

I had no moral qualms about it. And if I ever lived out there again I would employ domestic staff again too.

Those that lived in bigger houses often had a small "cottage" in the gardens that the staff would live in. They were small and not great, but it was a roof over their heads, and most people I knew made sure they were well looked after.

In a country with high unemployment and little job choice becoming domestic staff is often a lifeline - a source of at least a small wage and an ability to be able to feed their families and get the children educated.

Obviously some employers did take the p*ss and treat their staff like shite, but on the whole domestic staff were treated with respect and the housing adequate - and certainly an offer of a job with a crammed cottage in someones secured grounds beats a shack in highly deprived area.

buzzing. we agree on those points. what I can't agree with is the notion that it's wrong to employ domestic helpers.

More generally though - Why the derision and accusations of smugness and patronisation when posters who do employ home help, and provide fair terms and conditions gave specific examples of how? You can't argue vociferously about how all expats are morally bereft and then not allow them to defend themselves with examples.

Sorry - one handed and no spell check

Camel: WesternExpats also abuse their foreign workers. They also break the minimal contracts which the system allow.

The one day a week which all workers are entitled to have off is abused.

The working hours are arbitrary.

Some 'nannies' sleeping in the children's room - on the floor sometimes.

going through their stuff if they think something may have been stolen.

being able to send her back for whatever reason and getting them banned from employment in the country without judge and jury.

Stuff like that shouldn't be a allowed to any employer.

BUT: The system allows it. The great discrepancy between the haves and the have nots aggravate the basest things in human nature. Not until you live that life can you understand how it can happen.

toccata, please post about your experience/whether you thought it was morally right to do as well.

so what have I missed?

Can someone summarise?

Should I bother posting seeing as though we once hired a maid (paid normal local rates - and a gardener at a pittance........at his request I hasten to add).

I would have thought that a robust discussion of domestic employment with first hand examples from all over the globe was an exceedingly useful direction for MN to take. It gets pretty small-minded and parochial on here a lot of the time.

and since when was development a bastion of the left?

fgs dittany. can you please stop seeing things in black and white???
As I said on the other thread, in my experience ill treatment of domestic workers is really not the norm. Whilst I would like to change the world and make sure that the industry is properly regulated, in this instance, I can only take responsibility for my situation and make sure I am providing fair terms and conditions.
I already categorically stated that cheap labour, dormitories as living quarters, bonding etc are unacceptable. But that doesn't mean that employing domestic labour is wrong.

But. In the interest of open mindedness Please tell me what you would do about the millions of unskilled people living in developing countries and willing to work for a living? Short term and long term actions.

It's mine, all mine, ha ha ha ha ha harrrr!

You get the secondary viper award - sounds much more cool in a Kill Bill Kinda way!

Springheel why did I make you wee? Please tell. I am usually about as funny as herpes.

No,I agree Buzz,but I dont thik having a pop at Western Expats for employing Housemaid/Boys (who pay alot of money to get these jobs helps.Ratherfight the corner of the Construction workers,no saftey equipment,pitiful pay,transported like cattle in open trucks,working in 42 degrees.They are the ones with truley miserable lives