Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

Back from flogging my houseboy.

TBM, where were you yesterday??? I have been furious at being characterised as an exploiter which is the furthest thing from what I am fgs.

I've had a look at that link to abu dhabi forum posted earlier. I imagine this is what posters who oppose employing domestic workers imagine to be the norm. The ME/UAE is an ANOMALY. It is unique in that domestic staff are imported from elsewhere and denied basic human rights (freedom for one). This is more a cultural phenomenon, where not only is there a lack of respect for women, there is also a lack of respect for people who are less than white, for foreigners etc. This doesn't mean that domestic help shouldn't be employed though. This just means that people(we) need to work through the relevant organisatiuons to apply pressure on govt and instigate a change of culture - we need to address the whole area of labour practice. It's not just domestic workers who have few rights, the problem is rampant across all strata of industry/society. It's a regulatory issue. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Yes, there are issues in other developing countries, but as stated earlier, they are the exception rather than the norm. I see nothing wrong with domestic work, and I for one will not be denying someone employment when a. I require their services b. they need to earn a living in order to survive. How could you look at yourself in the mirror with all those people with children suffering from malnutrition...and because of "principle" decide not to provide them with employment????? If you don't employ them, there is no safety net.

Finally managed to have something to eat today (its about 10pm) so am slightly less riled now. Amazing what some carbs can do to calm me down.

Anyway, did a quick poll amongst some expat friends round here. Vast majority pay somewhere between 3 and 4.50 an hour. Some pay as little as 2 (and got flamed by others for paying so little). However, Dds nanny just told me that the most she's ever been offered by a local family (even a very very wealthy one) was 1.50. That really is shameful.

Buzz,no i dont either.Am in Bahrain anyway

And, in case anyone hasn't spotted, I;m really riled about being accused of employing "poundland domestic labour"!

Rant over now!

willie - I'm just a bit miffed at being told "shame on you" by dittany, tbh. I really enjoy reading her threads/posts on the feminism boards, but think she's being really naive on this one to suggest that UK minimum wage should apply everywhere.

AFAIK, the min wage was calculated as being the least amount of money a person can earn and maintain a basic standard of living (based on one person one wage calculations, not on trying to raise a family on it). And based on national average costs (eg housing, food, utilities etc). So the cost of living in a country is always taken into account when calculating the min wage.

That doesn't deny that some expats (and even more locals) take the p**s with their domestic help, but I'm not one of them, and I'm a bit that dittany thinks so.

Just calculated that DDs nanny is paid about 4.23 an hour (pounds, not local currency). So that's 75%ish of the UK min wage, in a market where cost of living is less than half. Add on top of that her tax and NI equivalent (which we pay in addition to her salary, many don't bother), her accomodation, food etc, and she probably gets close to min wage in package terms. Just not in cash.

TBH, my DH only earns about 4.50 an hour when he works here (local salary, not expat). So if I had to pay her more, we would actually not be able to afford it (agreement in our family is that if DH salary doesn't cover childcare cost, he won't work) and she'd be out of a job.

Dittany also misses the point that in Thailand, many jobs are reserved for Thais. Working as domestic help is one of the only jobs that Burmese refugees can do legally. So if she wasn't working as a nanny, she would be deported back to Myanmar. Hardly the best outcome for her.

I'm interested to know if dittany and other posters who claim we're exploiting our home help also check the labels of every item of clothing they wear to make sure the are manufactured in countries with decent labour laws. Many retailers in the UK may sign up to fair working practice charters, but few really enforce them. The conditions in garment factories in countries such as Bangladesh (where my father is from) are truly shocking.

buzzingnoise I think it is important to acknowledge that many of the examples of poor treatment given in relation to domestic staff also apply to most employees in the gulf states.

Many senior employees in the Gulf States have their contracts altered in favour of the employer without notice/are subject to the illegal retention of passports and salary's/bonus's. Employers can, and still do, impose travel and employment bans, they can have you deported and terminate contracts of employment on a whim.

I am certainly not suggesting that this makes it ok but it ought to be recognised that such practises are not restricted to the poorest and most disadvantaged by any stretch of the imagination.

I was there from Sep '97 until April 2000. Saw the fall of the country .

Ask your brother about PE - he'll know what I'm on about LOL.

toccata I don't really know much about the school rivalries, parents lived there 20 years ago and I used to visit for holidays sometimes - I was at boarding school in a different country. I do however have fantastic memories of the place. Great fun.
When were you last there? I went about 12 years ago and it had Already changed

TheBoss I gave an example on other thread of a young (22 I think she was) African girl who I got a visa for and took to America with me. She had a proper contract of employment, weekends off, was paid minimum US wage which was over $1,000 a month, she had no bills whatsoever as she lived with us and ate what we ate. I also paid for her to go to adult literacy classes. I also said that the visa alone is like gold dust...I was derided for being patronising etc. You can't win.

thatbuzzingnoise - its really quite different in the Far East. The ME has all kids of additional issues at play, not least the lack of value placed on the role of women in society in general. One reason why we turned down numerous oppotunities to go and work there.

I don't shop at Spinneys either. (£7 equivalent for a tub of Total Greek Yoghurt which retails for £1.35 in the UK) Are you Cuh-razy?

smallorange - I think some expats live that life, not all. Many of us do our best to pay more than a living wage.

TBH, I treat DDs nanny exactly as I would treat her if I employed her in the UK. Same benefits, same working conditions, with a salary that she was open-mouthed at. I still fail to see how that is exploitation.

It is a hugely unfair draconian system.There is no doubt that many expats treat their staff well and provide them with money etc etc BUT it is hugely unequal and unfair.It is the norm there though and really up to the expats to have some conscience themselves.The monstrosity that is dubai was built by workers brought in, paid a pittance,in order for others to hugely profit. It is wrong on so many levels and I am sure none of these workers would have a clue they werer fodder for their rich employers entertainment following a boozy lunch back home

Oh, I'm not in the ME, by the way, in Thailand.

Ok, just responding to the last few posts about 2 to 3 times salary not being enough. She's paid just over 1k per month. She doesn't have to pay for food (we provide her with food and a kitty for food on the days for when she doesn't fancy eating with us), accomodation or bills. I think that's a not unreasonable amount of money, when you factor in the cost of living here. And that's takehome pay - we also register her for tax and NI equivalent.

That is really a lot of money here - she saves half, spends half the rest (she loves the cinema and clothes) and sends half the rest home.

Agree with Dittany re the wage thing. Friend is on 90k in Dubai, living the good life, tax free, sure hecmust have servants.

He is being allowed to profit massively, earn beyond his wildest dreams, but I bet his servants are barely making a living.

That is the point - massive inequality when it comes to sharing the bonanza.

Maybe I have to live there to understand though - although I wouldn't. You can't even shag on the beach.

OMG - I've just realised - they live just round the corner from where I used to live . We lived in Avondale West, I once housesat for a family in Mount Pleasant.............exH proposed in there house on New Years eve >

ARGHHHHHHHH St Johns - I'm sorry I can't talk to you any more......still I suppose it's marginally better than St Georges or Churchill

My heart is sworn to PE - The Tigers rule - sorry

But your average housemaid doesnt shop at Spinneys

My parents lived in Zimbabwe - Mount Pleasant My brother went to St Johns in Borrowdale....

I don't know first hand about the cost of living in the UAE so can't tell what it means to earn £150-£450. I do know that in a place like even South Africa, £450 would be a decent wage.

ahh x posts with you

dittany - a lot of expats here aren't on expat packages. My husband isn't. If I paid said employee minimum wage, it would be more than he earned.

I fail to see how anything I'm doing is exploiting her. Perhaps you should spend some more time living here before you throw accusations like that around. She is very very well off for a nanny here. She has legal protection due to her contract, all the protection she would get if employed in the UK, she's just paid less, albeit well more than the average wage here.

Its hugely simplistic to suggest that expats should pay the salary of their home country -if I was employing a nanny in my home country, I would expect someone ofsted registered, with lots of qualifications etc. She has none of these things, so I wouldn;t pay someone in her position a similar salary. Instead, I pay her what I paid in the UK to send my child to nursery. That's 2 times what she earned in her last job, and she gets benefits as well.

If you really want to see exploitation here, go and look in some of the garment factories where the clothes you buy in the UK are made. Or in the toy factory down the road where the lovely wooden toys we buy so willingly in the UK are made. These people work in truly horrific conditions, and, quite frankly, most UK stores and consumers don't give a crap so long as they can go on buying their primark bargains. Its not just primark, even stores like M&S have been caught doing the same thing.

No,Cynthia paid her air fare,her sponser alot of money to come here to work as a maid.If I turn round to her and say we are not going to employ her,we will send you home or find another job(which she is free to do any time she wants)she would be devistated.Her mother and sister rely on her income.So if all of us stopped employing these people,what happens to them.No jobs back home,or else they wouldnt pay to be here.

buzzing - you see that means nothing saying that the minimum wage is the equivalent of £150 - without knowing the cost of living. (and I confess to knowing absolutely SOD ALL about the cost of living in the UAE).

for some perspective on how far 750 dhms goes in the UAE, it is the shopping bill a week for many an expat family assuming 2 adults two children is around 500 dhms give or take a hundred.

I see from the last few posts we're talking about a different part of the world, where foreign expats on huge wages are common - so perhaps my experiences/views are different.