Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

"So her nanny's choice would have been limited by government constrictions."

Thanks for the info toccata, but it has no bearing on my questioning about accepting the status quo. I'm not sure that 'sex worker' is an officially sanctioned job though

"Are you going to sit there from the comfort opf your homes and tell me she's exploiting these people??? What the fuck have you actually done about poverty???'

Blimey MadwoMen- who is this aimed at? Please point out where I have said anyone is exploiting anyone else.

I don't think employing domestic helpers is 'doing something about poverty'. If you believe that to be the case, I think you are deluded- even though you are from a developing country.

I repeat:

1.Be honest about the exchange of labour
2.Pay a decent wage
3.Try not to refer to your employees as children or possessions

Your mum is wrong to call herself a feminist and use the term 'houseboy' and 'housegirl'.

It's WWB here in my new guise

Step away TBM, step away.

As someone who is from a developing country, but has worked annd lived on most continents.... I see the attitudes expressed here all the time, by well meaning westerners. It is offensive, and is based on the premise that people from developing countries need rescuing. It takes away our dignity and pisses us off all the time.

Actually, not wanting to sound ungrateful, we don't fucking want aid, you can keep it. we don't fucking want charity, keep that too. We just want respect and to conduct business on fair terms. Many people you speak to would rather suffer and struggle than accept the charity of a westerner. Domestic work in many of these countriess is a good job and especially when working in a good/prominent home is something that people are proud of.

My mum, who is a well known 'militant' feminist, gay rights advocate, socialist; has worked tirelessly all her life for the rights of women and girls, has raised 10's of millions of £££'s for the cause. She has workers and she calls thm maids, housegirls, houseboys etc. Are you going to sit there from the comfort opf your homes and tell me she's exploiting these people??? What the fuck have you actually done about poverty???

On the other thread the assumption was that I am a white expatriate, and that's the lens through which I was being judged. Jeesus christ, you lot.

Rant over

tethersend - irrc TheBoss did mention earlier that many jobs in the country she's living in as an expat are reserved for Thai people. So her nanny's choice would have been limited by government constrictions.

"So its a gross generalisation to assume that all domestic roles involve exploitation of some kind. In my case, I really don't believe I'm exploiting anyone."

Err... can you point out where I said this?

Fascinating as the minutiae of yours and your nanny's relationship is, I'm afraid one anecdote proves very little in terms of an argument.

"She also pointed out that her choices were being a maid, a nanny or a sex worker."

Wow. And are you just going to accept that as the status quo? I hope that Nannying was a career she would have chosen from a longer list of options too.

I also found it interesting that you go to great lengths to point out how intelligent your nanny is- why on earth would I or anyone else assume otherwise and need convincing of that?

tethers - of course its not altruistic to employ domestic help - its an exchange of labour, much like any other. The point is that it needs to be a fair exchange of labour for a fair wage - which many expats do provide. So its a gross generalisation to assume that all domestic roles involve exploitation of some kind. In my case, I really don't believe I'm exploiting anyone.

Started this morning by showing this thread to my DDs nanny. She read with interest, and then snorted very loudly. When I asked her why, her response was that she found the assumption by some Western women that because she was an Eastern woman she was exploited, oppressed and unable to speak up for herself extraordinarily patronising.

And that anyone who assumed that someone who survived real oppression in Myanmar, was taught English at a secret school, smuggled herself and 6 members of her family over the border, bribing and cajoling as they went, and not only survived but thrived as a domestic worker in Thailand, was unable to speak up for herself and recognise and couteract oppression, was just ignorant and offensive.

She also pointed out that her choices were being a maid, a nanny or a sex worker. Guess which one of those she singled out as really oppressive.

We then got into a whole discussion about whether capitalism is inherently founded on the oppression and exploitation of labour by the owners of the means of production, and whether I felt exploited by my employers since my salary is only about 1/500th of the income I generate for the company. At which point I realised that she is far smarter than I ever will be.

Arf at Tethers. Did you walk around the town with a bag on your head? Did you take it off for an ice-cream?

Thanks Kev and Noddy

I bailed into the houseboy thread disagreeing with the term houseboy as a relic of colonialism

Did some work in a school in East Africa briefly in a vac and the rule was then that we got paid local wages. Does solve the issue, doesn't it? Escept no-one would go if they had a family to support back home.

It's ace, we are always there visiting my son's god daddies.

Love the parks for the kids on the beach. They are ace.

Wandering round the Lanes aaaahhhh...

Is your name mud then?

i know how strange there was one when it suited

If only there were some sort of meet-up thread...

I never argued against employing any kind of domestic staff. I argued against the idea of said employment being a favour or an altruistic act- In short:

1.Be honest about the exchange of labour
2.Pay a decent wage
3.Try not to refer to your employees as children or possessions

I also said no able-bodied person needs domestic help. You can want it, but just be honest about it.

But I've forgotten all that- I'm making plans to move to Brighton. It's quite nice, isn't it?

Quattro, to be fair it was only one person having a pop at you, the rest were firmly on your side.

Have to say you sound like a bloody trooper to me.

I've employed a domestic firm for work in my time as have a lot of women on here.

The majority of people, to be fair, were just disputing the OP's use of the word "houseboy" and the fact that she had deliberately used this with intention to flame. Then, when people expressed an opinion she didn't like, she enrolled friends from another site to stick up for her, and started belittling people on other posts and facebook who challenged her.

Am I right?

I would like to make it clear I have no problem with employing anyone in this country and paying them a decent wage etc etc although i do have strong views on the situation abroad where I feel if there is enough money in the economy to import staff from other countries to clean expat homes then the money could be better used/diverted to where it is really needed without the need to uproot families etc.My main problem with this whole thread is that it was started as a bait and a gaggle of women were laughing and bitching offboard while others were debating a serious subject.I know many people here with cleaners, nannies etc and have no problem with them spending their earnings as they please I do however find the expat scenario different.

I was getting flamed on the other thread for having in my time employed a nanny, gardener, cleaner and multiple au-pairs. All in the UK and therefore benefiting from protection through employment law and minimum wage legislation, all benefiting from better than average employment conditions ... Dittany told me to clean my own house.

I do, of course, it's just that that advice was so utterly breathtaking in the context of (a) a disabled husband (b) a sixty hour working week MINIMUM (c) two children (d) three cats and (d) an above average income that enables me to pay for help so that I can come on MN ...

... and get flamed for having a cleaner

Do you not think you're being a bit zealous. I mean where does it stop? Should I service my own car? Write my own will?

oooh you viper...how could you show your face?

Hope you turned up on a man powered rickshaw, with your own human fly swatter.

How much did you tip the cha-wallah?

tether!brighton is lovely don't be put off!

I am not trying to (nor do I need to) justify anything.

I sold it, Kevin.

Cos I'm a bitch

Been away from thread because- ironically- I went to Brighton for the day

Who let tether out of the corral...?

And oi, where's my bitch trophy???

Good god, are you lot still trying to justify paying a paltry salary to your domestic helpers?

Go on, regale us with more tales of what marvelous employers you all are, and how you are helping humanity (loving the idea of not paying too much lest employee's family get kidnapped BTW. Real altruism there).

I'll give Amnesty International a call and tell them how selfless you're all being. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

There are many people who are just missing the point (on this and the earlier thread). If expats (and other locals) don't employ people to provide domestic services then those it really is a matter of life or death in a lot of Asian and African countries because locals won't be able to feed themselves or their family. Paying someone the equivalent of the UK minimum wage would be equivalent in some countries to paying them more than the President earns. In some countries, word would soon get around that you were a "billionaire" and it wouldn't be too long before your family were kidnapped or there was an armed robbery at your home.

I've come to this thread late so didn't see the link to the Abu Dhabi forum so not sure what was the point but in the past few years there have been a number of changes in the way in which the most disadvantaged of the workforce are treated which has come about almost entirely because of agitation by the Western expat community.

The promotion of better treatment for domestic and labouring staff is a frequent theme in the western expat press and there are a number of charities with huge expat support that assist the poorest and most vulnerable workers.

not just Dittany, the moral outrage on there was outrageous. as though employees and their families can live off lofty principles fgs. People don't know what they're talking aboiut.

And this idea that only lefties are for development is archaic. I am part of a huge movement that does not advocate for AID, but that supports debt releif and fairer trading terms. Indeed I have found on my travels that people from developing countries tend to be more right leaning than certainly in this country. Generalisation I know..but true.

TBM and Willie - there is no point in arguing with Dittany on this point - she is so sure she is right, and has little idea of the disruption to the local economy of paying "western" salaries.

I was flamed for paying my nanny in Belgium a net salary of 1500 euros a month, having her live in my spare room with her own bathroom, and all of her social security and medical bills taken care of. It wasn't, apparently, sufficient, for a 22 year old, 10 years ago. My secretary (D had a go at me about this as well) has gross pay of around 2200 euros a month, which works out to be around 1700 net. She has to pay her own rent, bills, travel etc from this.

So not such a bad deal.