Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

yy buzzing I agree. But my point o nthat, and I made it before is that the solutiono is not to stop employing domestic workers.

The solution is ito advocate for their rights. And actually this issue spans across sectors, and there needs to be advocay for employment rights for all, as well as women's rights human rights etc. Not employing them would, in my view, be worse.

SGM. On the other thread, we were all being accused of exploitation. What I'm trying to point out is that not all domestic labour is exploitation and not all of it in the UAE is exploitation either, but posters only wanted to see thingsin black and white.

I think, I think that Tethers and I might actually agree on the majority of points ...except for where she accused me of being patronising and the terminology issue.

I can't remember the details of the other thread and now begining to think I'm just enjoying the sound of my own voice as I don't know who I'm arguing with anymore

Come on you cunts

Fantastic post, thatbuzzingnoise

When people employ local staff and abide by local or traditional employment guidelines I can't see much of a problem. I was born abroad in a poor country and I understand that stuff.

I have a problem with employing staff in the Gulf states because the gross inequities in the hiring of staff, the inherently racist ways the national laws are organised and the impunity with which employees are subject is as I have said before, all morally bankrupt.

A few staff benefit generous employers but the majority are living in penury and worse because the laws are shit. It amplifies the injustice of the whole system to me. I don't think any human being should be subject to chance of getting a good employer. The percentage of staff who benefit this way is miniscule.

another poster said taht expats are also victims of having their passports taken off them and having their terms of employment illegally changed when in service. All I can say is the pigeons do come home to roost, don't they. And not all companies do that sort of stuff. Multinationals don't normally for example. Europeans tend to go out there on contracts based on British employment laws and with recourse under British law. It is Arab companies which tend to do keep people's passports and with hold their pay etc. People learn these things after they get out there and cut their jibs accordingly when they find out how the winds blow.

European expats have whole lot less to lose in these situations than the average slave from the Asian subcontinent and south east Asia. Being made redundant for example is a hiccup in our lives but it can be devastating for the worker and the extended family in their home countries.

European Expats are colluding in the abuse of these poor people. last year a large european contractor called in 400 of their migrant asian workers to the canteen for a meeting at 9 am. They told them all to pack their belongings and come back by 11 am. By 3pm they were back on flights to India. One outraged European asked his boss why was it done like that. The response was that some of these men will commit suicide and we don't want that on our hands. many times these men's families have sold the family land or used it as collateral to banks to pay fixers to get them out there and they expect to spend all of their working lives supporting the family to repay the debt. Going home early may sentence the whole family to death.

going out there to benefit from their system means we collude with the intense injustice of the whole system. Despite paying or maid and houseboy well. You can pay your houseboy and maid well because your family is profiting from the virtual enslavement of other people.

Ah but custy you certainly weren't one of them on FB

No, no. David Cameron, it's ok. You go off for that meeting on the troop surge. The home care specialist will mop tha bathtroom.

"Who said it was philanthropic???"

I did.

Don't get me wrong, Mad- I am not advocating sending shoes! I am using it as an analogy- both things are a drop in the ocean wrt alleviating poverty, although sending shoes is a wholly useless activity, so I take your point about that.

Would you really wave away an anti-poverty campaigner by saying "I'm doing my bit by employing a nanny/cleaner/housekeeper?" Christ, I hope not. That's my point.

Abr1de

Who said it was philanthropic???

Of course poverty will not be erradicated by domestic employment but it makes a critical contributionn. And to compare domestic employment to sending shoes??? Tether, I've seen you on other threads and respect your opinions, but that statement is sheer ignorance.

Domestic employment = productive, income generating activity, contributor to GDP, increases economic consumption both through locally earned wages and remittances.

Shoes to Africa = tat that they don't want. Have you watched that BBC docu on environmental waste to developing countries? If I get time I look for link.

I've been chuckling at Dittany. Hey, David cameron, finish your day early: it's your turn to mop the bathroom. Mr Top Brain Surgeon: leave that patient alone, you need to hurry back to hoover now.

Sorry to all you cleaning professionals, I know you might have liked the earnings you made, but Dittany says we're demeaning you.

Oh, look. Hope has done it for me.

No, Hope. It's not.

"But I think you (Tether) and others arguing that domestic labour is exploitation and not alleviating poverty need to re-examine your beliefs."

That's what I was getting at, Custy. There was so much more of that on the other thread, so I guess I am guilty of arguing in the wind too.

no, that would be singularly unwise, however i am wondering if the term philanthropy has been applied by others, to those who explain that the houseperson has good pay and conditions and sends money home to a poor family.

Custy, I don't think it's being very honest about the exchange of labour to pretend employing domestic staff is a philanthropic mission to alleviate poverty, do you?

I can't do this again.

"You are going to sit here and tell me that because she calls them houseboy/housegirl she's wrong to call herself a feminist."

Yes. I am. She sounds like she has done some wonderful things, but this does not make her beyond reproach. Perhaps it would make more sense to stop using the term 'housegirl/boy' and continue to call yourself a feminist, but you cannot do both IMO.

"When you're at work, do you not say "My team"."

No. I don't. It is patronising, and I have always hated it- in fact, if you do a search, there was a thread on it not so long ago. I say "The staff/team/department". Glad to see you assume I'm management though

"But I think you (Tether) and others arguing that domestic labour is exploitation and not alleviating poverty need to re-examine your beliefs."

I'm not arguing that domestic labour is exploitation.

I am arguing that poverty will not be eradicated by domestic employment. It alleviates poverty in the same way that sending shoes to Africa does- a misguided drop in the ocean.

Such a shame the original thread was deleted- this is just going round in circles.

I have been following this and the other threads with interest as i was one of the gaggle of women in brighton that day.

tethers summation us useful

1.Be honest about the exchange of labour
2.Pay a decent wage
3.Try not to refer to your employees as children or possessions

however as far as i can see, those people with experience of these things on this thread are saying that they recognise it's an exchange of labour

they provide a decent wage and conditions. however when they give examples they are accused of a 'doth protest too much' approach.

therefore would i be right to assert that the only argument here is the terminology of 'houseboy'?

I will get off MN before the baby wakes up, I will

this is why these threads shouldn't be deleted, I can't remember exactly who said what So it's aimed at anyone who said, or thinks that employing domestic cworkers is exploitative. And anyone who doesn't understand that domestic labour is part of the cycle of poverty alleviation. Do you know how much money is sent back home in remittances, in many countries it's more than foreign aid...and a large portion of it proceeds of unskilled labour. I say unskilled labour because in my opinion domestic wirk is actually a very acceptable (don't knopw word to use) form of unskilled labour compared to other forms of work.

It's irritating and offensive always being told what to do, how to do it, what to say, what's wrong, what's right etc by westerners. FFS. For 40 years my mum has worked with governments to formulate policy to emancipate women, to give them equal employment rights, equal property ownership rights, domestic rights, lobbied against domestic violence, started a fund worth £40m that supports the poorest of women set up and run enterprises, is now advocating for gay rights iin countries where they want to institute the death penalty, has recently begun an organisation that works with young women to bolster their self esteem and give them the confidence to enter into skilled employment. You are going to sit here and tell me that because she calls them houseboy/housegirl she's wrong to call herself a feminist. There are times I get irritated with her, because she's so busy fighting for women's rights that she sometimes doesn't spend as much time with us as I'd like. This woman who has selflessly fought for women, girls and homosexuals should not call herself a feminist?

Please. Don't be insulting now. Have a sense of perspective here.

As I said before, I'm willing to be educated on terminology. And indeed I will have this debate IRL. But I think you (Tether) and others arguing that domestic labour is exploitation and not alleviating poverty need to re-examine your beliefs. Of course no one's doing anyone a favour. It is an exchange, a mutually beneficical arrangement. I don't deny that I'm benefiting from th ework they do for me otherwise I wouldn't employ them. And as I've said ad nauseum, I pay and treat them more than fairly, as is ithe norm as far as I'm aware.

This issue of referring to domestic workers as possessions. When you're at work, do you not say "My team". That's possessive, because you're proud of your team and want to express ownership/close association. What's the difference with saying my insert term of choice?????

I suspect the difficulties in using a term other than "houseboy" is the same as the term "maid".

When I first moved to the ME I loathed the term maid. I considered it patronising and derogatory and swore I would never use it. After 12 months of using the term "cleaner" or "housekeeper" or "nanny" I gave up because nobody has a bloody clue what you are talking about.

My previous maid (NB I don't actually refer to her as "my maid" in real life I call her and refer to her by her name) likes being referred to as a "maid" she feels that the title sums up her role and she has pride in that role as it signifies her position in running the household.

Ah. Missed the bit where she said she was in Thailand. Doesn't change my question about maintaining the status quo, though.

well in 2003 Thailand did seriously consider legalising prostitution as an official occupation..........

Ah... WWB.