Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

thatbuzzingnoise was my World Cup name. Maybe this topic is dead but I would still like to say and real life got in the way.

desertgirl: the wages set by foreign governments are recommendations and they are not enforceable in the UAE and indeed in any other country. The Filipino government recommends $200US as a minimum for its overseas workers for example. It is trying to prevent the abuses of its citizens.

Expanding the argument into what Indian Expats, Arabs, or Gulf States citizens may pay and do their workers does not benefit anyone's argument. What it highlights is that these governments have laws that are easily and widely abused.

As you say, because these men and women have taken difficult decisions and are making huge personal sacrifices for their families, they deserve the protection of fair employment laws. It should not be down to the whims of an employer on how they are treated.

I am not sure how to interpret your penultimate post because as I said, I don't want this to be about about specific experiences and it skirts a lot of wider issues which would not do them justice to simply skirt. I would like to address your last paragraph briefly however. Yes a lot of companies which are big international names are abusing the rights of workers in these states. This is why these states ought to have laws based on what the ILO recommends, at the very minimum. This is why there ought to be an international and political effort, driven by the voting public, to force these governments to put pressure on gulf states to improve their employment laws. Their situation is somewhat analogous to what happened in South Africa. Companies are amoral entities which only look toward profit and shareloaders' returns. It was not until the public pressured governments and multinationals that multinationals start to threaten the S. African government with pulling out and with threats of being treated as a Pariah state that the RSA gov't began to change peacefully rather than by further blood letting.

desertgirl--I have based what I said about Dubai on the experiences of several groups of friends who have worked there for over a period of 10-15 years in various sectors (defence, IT, construction), rather than anything on the thread in particular. As I do not have friends working in the other places at the moment I do not feel able to pass judgement.

that buzzing noise, you said way back

SGM, you said > - sorry, it wasn't, it was about KSA. There is probably bonded labour there too though; though it is far, far more an issue with respect to construction workers than domestic staff; and needs to be tackled regionally if not globally, a lot of the inappropriate loans etc start with agents in India or other 'home countries'.

thatbuzzingnoise, you said

I must admit that the more I learn about Dubai the more naff and awful I think it is.

Great post buzz.I agree this is a v interesting topic and beats a lot of the usual

I agree. It's been the most interesting discussion I've had on mn I think. My beliefs have been challenged.......

tethers - I try and stay away from feeding threads, don't even talk about my MIL, but get sucked into the WOHM/SAHM every time! I really should learn!

DDs nanny is fascinating to talk to - one of the more interesting people I've met here, TBH. She reads so widely - was wide-eyed when my precious book collection turned up from the UK and is always borrowing from "the library", as she's taken to calling it. Books get read, and then discussed, that seems to be how she's largely educated herself before coming here. Again, makes a change from talking about shopping or travel plans with other expats here (although i have no problem talking about both things at times!).

BTW, she made some hilarious comments about MN - can't understand why the opinion of a bunch of women who are half way across the globe and who I've never met, nor are ever likely to meet, is so important to me!

It is interesting, isn't it? I'm so annoyed that the original thread got deleted, as it made a welcome change from the usual MIL/SAHM/WOHM/BF/FF debates.

BTW, am applauding your nanny.

BTW - I have to say, this is one of the most interesting chats I've had on MN for a long time. Makes me feel slightly less like my brain is rotting away....

Actually, goldenticket raises an interesting point about exploitation of labour in the UK - the cockle pickers of Morecambe Bay being a terrible case in point. It exists, and its naive to think that this is a problem that's confined to less "enlightened" countries. It isn't. Many many casual labourers work under dreadful conditions in the UK, well under minimum wage in far from ideal conditions, with no benefit/contract safety net and in fear of deportation if they are discovered or complain.

Maybe DD's nanny was right - capitalism is inherently founded on exploitation of one kind or another, and all we're debating is the extent of the exploitation before it becomes unacceptable.

TBH, the worst exploitation I've ever seen with my own eyes was on a plantation in Latam - utterly medieval conditions, no protection, daily violence, appalling pay. Guess where the crops were being exported to? Yup, you've guessed it - packaged into UK supermarket value packaging and shipped over for our delectation.

GT..yy. the petrol station thing is quite funny. and someone washes your windscreen too

As I said before, I've taken on board the discussion re. terminology and it's something that I'll explore IRL given the opportunity. The fact that I think context matters in determining whether it as a racist, derogatory term doesn't make me - actually I don't personally use it, I say housekeeper, househelp, cook, sometimes maid etc - (or the millions of people who use it), exploitative, or render us unable to call ourselves feminists, development workers, philanthropists or whatever else we call ourselves.

I had to pay someone to wash my clothes, after several months of wearing clothes that looked like they hadn't been washed despite me having spent hours cleaning them I gave up and paid one of the groundstaff at the school I worked at to do it for me.

Then I started walking round in clothes that not only were clean but looked clean

Read a lot of the deleted thread and some of this one. I moved out to Africa and really struggled with the whole expat lifestyle in terms of "staff" i.e. paying people to do things that I could easily do myself. Then it was pointed out that there was no benefit system in place meant that if I sacked the people who worked for me, I would effectively be sending them into poverty. The maid who worked for me was incredibly experienced and proud of how she did her job and through working for expats, she had bought some land, built a house and installed all utilities to the house. She was also putting her children through school (no free education). I paid her a very decent wage and complied with all local employment legislation.

Interestingly, in the petrol stations there, someone fills your car, someone else checks your oil and water and yet another person cleans your windscreen. Again, these are all jobs that in the UK we do ourselves but if this prevents all those energetic young people living a life of poverty and gives them a reason to get up in the morning, how can that be a bad thing? As long as their employer is treating them fairly (and that's crucial, whether you're a windscreen washer in Africa or a cockle picker in the UK), I don't see the problem in the type of work it is.

Have to say I really don't like the term houseboy/housegirl though for all the reasons mentioned.

www.kalayaan.org.uk/

If it was me, in the situation I would:

Read the guidelines on websites of charities like these and ensure I was doing my bit to treat employees fairly.

Find out what constitutes "fair wages" or standard of living required and match them along with expected benefits.

As an employee of a company that provides the service to me I would ask for assurance that the people employed are entitled to these rights.

I would just stop using the term "Houseboy/girl" as the definition is "domestic servant" which, for me, personally (which is how I started to be known as bitch face viper) doesn't sit comfortably.

But that's just me.

hmmm - I agree with you MM on the coloured terminology in SA (indeed I've wasted too many hours trying to explain that on MN LOL). But houseboy/girl does seem wrong......

sorry about double post. slow network.

why would it be worse? we have to do our own ironing, mind our own children and clean our own houses?

I agree with you that the wrt the other points btw. there are other things which can be done through our own governments and for our governments to support intiatives of those from India, and the Phillipines in pressuring the Gulf states to improve their employment laws but all I can hear is the crickets right now.

I don't think anywhere I said to stop employing domestics. I am saying that we are supporting the system by doing so.

I don't sound like am not judging anyone, I hope. I am stating what happens. I don't intend to comment on anyone's individual circumstance. Everyone is responsible for his own actions and have to make his own peace with it.

now i better go do some work.

why would it be worse? we have to do our own ironing, mind our own children and clean our own houses?

I agree with you that the wrt the other points btw. there are other things which can be done through our own governments and for our governments to support intiatives of those from India, and the Phillipines in pressuring the Gulf states to improve their employment laws but all I can hear is the crickets right now.

I don't think anywhere I said to stop employing domestics. I am saying that we are supporting the system by doing so.

I don't sound like am not judging anyone, I hope. I am stating what happens. I don't intend to comment on anyone's individual circumstance. Everyone is responsible for his own actions and have to make their own peace with it.

SGM, that's what you think. But never having lived in the ME, but having lived where locals employed as domestic workers are called houseboy/housegirl etc my point of reference is different and I don't see any racist conotations.

It's similar to how mixed race people are refered to (and refer to themselves) as coloured in South Africa. Thats terminology that's perfectly acceptable there but is viewed as racist elsewhere.

tethers - the comments from me were mainly aimed at dittany who did accuse me of exploiting my nanny. Not at you, sorry if they sounded like that.

I'm not accepting the status quo, neither are many expats here, hence not really giving a crap that locals complain we are "spoiling the market" by "overpaying" for services. Nor are many domestic workers, factory workers and sex workers here - the political unrest in Thailand is representative of a lot of things, and exploitation of an "underclass" is definitely one of them.

The comments about intelligence of my nanny is in reference to earlier comments (might have been on original HB thread) about workers being under-educated and lacking a voice of their own. That's the only reason I brought it up. That, and the fact that intelligence is generally something I admire in people, so tend to be vocal about it whosever I see it in (sorry, not v good English there, clearly lacking some intelligence myself ATM).

god my spelling
In my defence I'm looking after a baby and young dc...