Welsh teenagers 2 years of education behind English teenagers

But don’t about 20% of secondary school students in Wales attend Welsh-medium schools?

Bloody Gaeilge! It’s a ridiculously huge part of the curriculum all the way up to Leaving Cert level and needs to be scrapped as a compulsory subject after Primary and made optional. Far too much time is wasted on this nonsense.

The problem with Wales is the Welsh government. We have had quarter of a century of Labour. During that time devolution has spawned an industry dedicated to making Wales much more Welsh than it used to be or most people need it to be. We are poorer as a result. It is a case of who you know, not what you know. The concept of a single Welsh nation is a fiction. Wales was only briefly united before being joined with England after the Norman invasion. Healthcare and Education have suffered, I could tell you stories that would break your hearts about how awful the care is here.

Yes of course, the changes are often just political whim.

Most Irish people don’t consider it nonsense.
It could be taught better though.

@Blushingm it gets very boring constantly having to defend the Welsh language. Where I live Welsh is nearly everyones first language, the language of their choice, of their family, community and their history.

England did particularly well in PISA relative to other European OECD countries. It is easy to always blame the politics and education system. But the scores of a lot of European countries have gone down and it is largely being attributed to screen time, smart phones and the massive decline in literacy (linked to the former).
Literacy cannot just be delivered at school alone. Children need a passion for reading widely and extensively.
It is a bit cheap to blame it on the Welsh language. Generally speaking learning any other language is hugely beneficial.
If GCSE Science is down to just 1 GCSE that is an issue compared to English schools which do teach Science very well. In fact it is Science England has truly excelled in in PISA.
England in the league tables is up there with the pushy Asian educational systems now.
To be honest, all the research shows that to access the sophisticated modern economies that we live in all humans in those societies need a high level of literacy and numeracy. So yes, it is important.

education researcher here...

Few things to note:
1, Pisa scores are good in some manners but unreliable in others. Don't disregard them, but don't treat them as universal fact. E.g. years ago when they first introduced China to the PISA tables, it topped them massively. What followed was a clamor of politicians and companies trying to find out and copy how China manages their education programs.

In reality, the PISA trial with China only included select schools from Shanghai, China's richest city.. so in effect they were comparing entire diverse countries, to just the best students in the richest city of China, and funnily enough finding that those students do rather well.

So be a bit careful with PISA outcomes

2, Wales vs UK is a pointless comparison without regional breakdowns. in effect, in terms of size, population and distribution, Wales compares better to a region of the UK, rather than to the whole thing. I don't believe PISA scores differentiate between areas of the UK, but I would be entirely confident that what you will find is that London and the south east do much better than other regions, and that Wales is pretty comparable to the north of England in results.

3, However, with the disclaimers aside, could Wales just have poor educational policies? Absolutely. socio-economic factors do play a part, but only in conjunction with proper educational practices, and the reason for the difference is almost certainly a bit of both. However, to what extent is the Welsh government's fault, and to what extent it is the result of wider inequality - that would need much more focused research than PISA provides. I'm sure research on this already exists, if you want to find it.

If many/most current parents don’t speak Welsh then your suggestion is absurd

I don’t understand why “inequality” and socio economic factors are always offered up as the No 1 reason.
London has some of the highest child poverty rates in the entire country yet is a top performer (not just PISA, GCSE KS2 etc).
Same for much of China (PISA), plenty kids there not advantaged socio economically.
PISA may just be one form of test but if it aligns with GCSE and KS2 results more widely it isn;t just one facet. It is part of the picture.

Because they're busy learning Welsh?
You could argue that that's a waste of time

The irony

You could argue any subject is a waste of time. Why bother studying drama/ DT/ sports/ religion/ geography none of those count towards PISA.

Welsh language can certainly fit in a broad balanced curriculum.

And as for the argument why do they need to study it all the way to 16 if learnt at home, English students study English Language to GCSE - why is that any different?

English students aren't 2 years behind.

Are you sure science has been reduced to one GCSE? I'm pretty sure double award science is the norm, meaning physics, chemistry and biology are taught and examined as a unified course leading to two GCSEs being awarded. As far as I know this is pretty standard in England too.

What had been proposed was that single sciences (individual GCSEs in physics, chemistry and biology, also called "triple award") would no longer be offered. This change has been paused pending a review in 2028.

A bit of context is needed for the assertion that "the syllabus has changed to reduce English language and literature to one subject" too.

It is a misleading oversimplification to say either that English language and literature were two GCSEs, or that they are now one GCSE.

In England there are separate English Language and English Literature GCSEs. More than a quarter of pupils who are entered for the language paper don't take literature (620420 literature entries in 2026, versus 844455 for language), so it would be accurate to say that pupils in England either study English Language and Literature for two GCSEs or, in a significant proportion of cases, study only language with no exposure to literature. For many pupils in England, literature isn't on their timetable at all.

The new arrangement in Wales is for English to be taught as a single syllabus including elements of both language and literature. This is available as either a double award (study both subjects and get two GCSEs) or a single award (one GCSE, including elements of both language and literature).

This could be done well or done badly, but it's not a 50% reduction in English!

I had to do a university project one summer in North Wales. We went out in Caernarfon a few times at the weekend. The lads that came over to chat up the girls barely spoke English. They were effectively trapped in North Wales for the rest of their lives. It must be incredibly limiting in terms of opportunities, but I can only assume that's what their parents want - i.e. children that never spread their wings and move further afield.

"Barely spoke English at all"?! Sorry, but I just don't believe you. Perhaps you struggled to understand them, but would you visit Newcastle or Middlesbrough and claim people there "barely spoke English at all"?

Come to think of it, perhaps you would!

This is possibly one of the most ignorant things I've read on mumsnet, fair play to you (chwarae teg!)

I think the Welsh govt (of any colour) has completely failed the children of Wales for more than a decade, and their education should be brought back under Westminster, or at least Westminster send in a team to reset policy and undo the damage.

If I had a 4yo in Wales, I'd be moving across the border asap to give my child a better chance at life.

If their parents don't speak welsh, then it is not their home languge in the first place.

There are a lot of benefits to knowing a second language and it is irrelevant what the language is.

The new integrated science GCSE is single award.

Believe what you want, but they only spoke English to a 'D in French at GCSE' level.

Have you spent any time in that part of the country?