Welsh teenagers 2 years of education behind English teenagers

Honestly, whenever the PISA results drop, it’s proper grim viewing for Wales compared to the rest of the UK. Welsh kids keep pulling lower scores in maths, reading, and science than pupils in England, which obviously sets off a massive row. The opposition and critics jump straight on it, calling it a total embarrassment and blaming bad management, dodgy curriculum changes, and a lack of support in classrooms. Meanwhile, the defenders jump in to say hold on a minute—Wales actually does a decent job closing the gap for kids from poorer backgrounds, and they argue that testing students in Welsh might skew things a bit. But at the end of the day, most folks just see it as a bloody nightmare that urgently needs sorting.

Worth a watch as it discussing the problems with Welsh education/ curriculum without even getting in to the Welsh language debate.

I’d be careful of writing off the state of the English education system based on Mumsnet bashing. My two children (mid secondary) have had a great time. Their primary school was quite crappy with a high turnover of teachers but they still had excellent reading and maths abilities, as well as a sound knowledge of general history/geography/science and good trips. Their secondary has been brilliant.

I think the English curriculum is actually very solid and age appropriate, and I think the focus on phonics and basic maths that’s underscored by the phonics and times tables check actually does a good job of holding schools to account. If our primary school hadn’t had to get our children through those tests, even when they had a string of supply teachers, temp head teachers and Covid, do I think they would have put in the effort? I don’t think so….

That’s good. I also hope they don’t get rid of triple science.

The new English qualification seems to br changing again after only one year.

No, state schools in Wales are required to use CBAC / WJEC, unless offering a subject for which there is no pathway. Welsh GCSEs are very different from other exam boards. They are modular, with exams sat through y10 and 11, Welsh GCSEs have retained a greater coursework element. They are also graded differently (Wales has retained the letter grading system rather than the numerical grades seen in England). Only WJEC qualifications are in line with the Curriculum for Wales.

English and maths are also becoming / have become a double award.

Presumably schools have the option of using different exam boards for science, though they'd have to teach it in English as a result.

Does the WG have any influence in WJEC? I understand that the trustees are drawn from LEAs.

Not true. The Welsh Government have delayed making a decision on this until 2028 (I think because of backlash) so double science is the standard, but there's still the option to do triple science at present

I hope that they don't get rid of the triple science option.

Because half of the kids in Welsh speaking schools are being educated in their 2nd language, so they are learning a subject with very specific linguistic terms, as you say science has it's own language, via a middle language (Welsh), it is a waste of limited time and energy. Also there is a Wealth of resources (books, education videos, peer reviewed articles written in both English and other mainstream languages, where there isn't in Welsh.

In year 4 my daughter should be learning about vertices in Maths, what are the Welsh word for Vertices, vector, diagonal, magnitudes and coordinates. These are difficult concepts for an 8yo, so she has to learn and understand the words, which will be a mix of entire translations some obviously just Welsh spellings of the recognised word in the scientific community, and she has to make sense of this to read the question to do the Maths, which is what she is meant to be learning. This is too much to ask an 8yo, and it is compounded by the 'child-led' approach to Welsh Education where she can opt to stick on the green or yellow chilli level, and who can blame her, her head must be spinning!!

This stubbornness to name the problems in Welsh Education, because it offends a few Welsh speakers are destroying our childrens furtures, and it definetly is not all, I have First Language Welsh friends sending there kids to the most English medium secondary school because of their own experiences in higher education.

I am fully in favour of bilingiual education, but done in a way where it only benefits my DD, not where it fails her. But we have had that choice taken away from us, with no English medium primary schools and the only remaining predominantly English medium secondary under attack from Plaid.

I think they're probably OK with not working where you live!

I don’t get this STEM should be taught in English argument. Yes science has a universal language of its own but it is a complete mismatch of European languages with some Latin thrown in as well. Eg gold is Au, electrical current is represented by an I. The metric system was developed by the French.

If all STEM needed to be taught in English how come other countries manage to teach it in the native language? Including those that don’t use the Roman alphabet, which would be an even bigger barrier.

Where I live, it is MUCH harder to get a job if you don’t speak Welsh!

Those f**king 'Chilli's' have a lot to answer for!!

My understanding is that WJEC has removed the option of separate / triple science and is only offering the double award.

Interestingly, in Ireland those who sit the Leaving Cert through the medium of Irish get extra points to compensate for any disadvantage.

It does depend on the subject (you don’t get extra points in English exams, for example) but you can get up to 10% bonus marks in some subjects, and up to 5% in others, if you score under 75% in the exam. The bonus tapers off for results above 75%, meaning no bonus is given if you score 100%.

I’m not certain whether it’s a good idea or not, but something Wales could look at if they do want to encourage the language perhaps.

I think that the issue is possibly that it's harder for Welsh medium secondaries to recruit subject specialists. Let's face it, it's hard enough to find a physics specialist for English medium education. A physics teacher who is fluent in Welsh will almost certainly be fluent in English too, so will have employment opportunities left, right and centre; whereas the schools will be recruiting from a small portion of an already limited pool.

Maybe if Wales hadn’t been hamstrung by the Barnet formula over the last 50+ years where we get less per head than Scotland then maybe we stand a chance.
There is massive deindustrialisation and when we make head ways with other technology, Uk national government won’t give any Lee way on Crown Estate so yet again we are asset stripped and Westminster doesn’t care enough.

The welsh language has nothing to do with the poor results in my opinion. My kids go to a bilingual school but its English first so welsh is taught more like a second language and I can honestly say it has helped them with picking up other languages as well.
I do worry greatly about maths provision though. My dd especially I feel like she is behind where she should be at her age and over the last year I have been taking steps to help her as she is a bright girl who lacks in confidence and the fact she could choose her worksheet level through out primary school meant she wasn't pushing herself even though she was definitely able.
I do reading with the children in the primary school and it is shocking how some of them can't read and its not because the teachers don't try. They will admit their parents do not read with them and they only have a couple of books at home. I live in a fairly poor area of north wales and I do think socio economics play a major part in this. I wonder what the scores would be in comparison to places in the north of England for example.

Blaming a second language for poor results is daft when you think how fluent European countries are in English.

I don’t think you can blame the closure of mines. I grew up in Wales then and a whole heap of us got out of Wales and found work elsewhere. Also the educational level of my university educated friends’ children is abysmal compared their home life. Great home life, poor attainment. That is down to the education system.

Just to add, I grew up in north wales too (where I still live and have DC in secondary school) and can see little difference in mine and my DDs education with regard to the Welsh language. I went to a Welsh school in a Welsh area and we spoke and learnt Welsh at school. We were taught through Welsh medium in secondary school.
The decline in standards compared to England has been increasing over the last few years, a recent problem. It can’t be because of the Welsh language because that has been around in schools for decades.
Of course we need to understand what’s going on but just blaming it on learning Welsh is lazy.

It's scary, it feels like i need to change my mindset and treat school as childcare and socialisation and home as education, but I don't want to be a home educator, I'm too busy, I'm starting an MSc, and she is with her Dad 50/50 who would never get on board with it. But I don't want to fail her, she is so bright and determined she wants to be a vet.

Blaming the poor quality education on the Welsh language is a red herring that allows everyone to overlook the ideological ITE training, ridiculous curriculum, poor funding, and lack of accountability.

Oh God I attended a child led infant school in the 70s. I loved it but it was terrible. I remember going up to junior school and being in awe of the "really clever kids" who had come from the more structured school. I never did catch up.

Okay, I'll look in to it. She is suprisngly good at doing her homework unprompted when it has been set by school, but if i asked her to do something...well!!!

I'm not sure what it is, but i think the bilingual education my contribute indirectly to the problem though.

I think Welsh schools hide behind the fact that there is a period when bilingual kids are behind linguistically as part of learning two languages, but the Welsh education system is using this as an excuse to ignore the obvious failings.

There also seems to be a pattern of dumbing down rather than pushing kids on, and a bit two much 'child-led' learning, my DD does the 'Chilli's' system for Maths and whilst capable of doing the harder red Chilli's she doesn't because she'd rather get 100% correct than risk making mistakes, and she is left, at 8, to make this decision for her education. She needs have that choice taken away and to be pushed to her capabilities, make mistakes and realise that it's fine and make progress in her Maths at the same time.

I also have big concerns about teaching STEM via Welsh. Whether the Welsh first crew like it or not Science is a global concept best understood through majority languages and STEM subjects needs to be taught via English otherwise we are putting our children at a disadvantage.

I'd like to see a Welsh education system that teaches arts and humanities via Welsh (because the Welsh culture is rich and proud) and teaches STEM subjects completely through English - best of both worlds.