Dependent sibling and elderly parents. What what happens when parents are gone?

You might find a lot of sanity if you look at Al-Anon, a network of groups for people who are friends and families of alcoholics.

It helped me to understand why the person with a drinking problem acted the way they did, but also the different roles everyone around them ended up taking.

it’s very common for people to get stuck trying to fix someone when that person is not willing or able to take responsibility for their own life. It doesn’t help. It just prolongs the illness as they don’t have any consequences for their refusal to take responsibility and get support for themselves. Someone throws a mattress under them every time they might have a hard landing and have to think differently.

This is why I said earlier in the thread, detach, detach, detach. Because honestly it’s like screaming in to the wind with the people you are dealing with. And the conversations will do more damage to your mental and physical health, than not having the conversations at all. Take on the attitude of ‘let them’. Let them continue down the path of their own doing, and focus on your own life and goals. When it all finally comes to a full stop with the passing of your parents, quietly and simply make steps for your share in the property. And if your sibling kicks off at this point ‘let her’ whilst continuing to focus on your own needs. Hand it to solicitors to deal with. They are never going to listen or take actions in advance to avoid a shit show and they don’t care about the impact on you. So let them. Release yourself. Detach.

I could have written so much of this about my brother too. Unfortunately I have to tell you that buying them their own place doesn't help - my parents did that for my brother and we're now looking at him losing that. They just keep bailing him out. This thread had me going to speak to my mother about it just now and she has agreed that I shouldn't have to take him on when she's gone and that she doesn't expect me to. It's gone further than that though. I've developed such compassion fatigue about him over the years that I told her that when she does die and I find him sleeping rough in the streets I'm more likely to kick him, hard, than to buy him a meal and help him. I don't see any way out and it's fucking miserable.

I'm so sorry to read your update OP - infuriating and exhausting. And so sad that this one element has affected everybody's life so much - how your parents have lived, your relationship with your parents, and now how to handle what's to come.

Those last couple of paragraphs of your last post - from "I think part of what hurts.... " could you put those in a letter to your Mum, for me they completely sum it up - your own feelings and that you are not the 'bad guy' and don't deserve to be labelled as such. It may not make them see sense but you will at least, if you walk away, know you gave it all you could.

I think this is excellent advice. It's that phrase about not driving yourself mad over things you can't change - the situation is very far from good but you cannot tie yourself in knots OP trying to make your parents see things differently.

And one more point (not sure it's that relevant to your situation OP but for the sake of accuracy) Several posters have mentioned "the house needing to be sold if one/ both parents needs care." This is not true. See below.

No, your house does not need to be sold to pay for care costs if your spouse, civil partner, or unmarried partner still lives in the property UK-wide. Under local authority financial assessment rules, the home is fully "disregarded" from the means test during this time, and a sale cannot be forced. Aside from a partner or spouse, a property is also completely ignored in the means test if it is still the main home of : A relative aged 60 or older or a disabled or incapacitated relative.

I've no idea how old your sister is but if it was one parent needing care the house definitely, definitely can't be sold from under the remaining parent.

I'm sure someone will come on and say "No that's not true" 😁but it really is!

You know your parents wont do anything. You've made it clear your sister isn't your responsibility. Take a step back and leave them to it.

Around my way, age 55 is the time you can be put in sheltered accommodation by the council. Personally I would be stepping away from the situation when your parents pass and let the state deal with it. Sometimes things have to get worse before they become better.

Part of this may be that by pushing your parents to have this conversation you’re acknowledging that your worries stem for what will happen after they’ve died and I doubt many elderly people love those conversations…

I wonder if they will leave the house and other assets to DSIS?

Exactly this

It's no surprise to learn that the discussion was unwelcome, so the suggestion about maintaining boundaries is especially important. No need for guilt either now or in the future, OP - you've genuinely tried and can't do any more

My heart goes out to you.

I have a similar situation in my family but with my disabled, vulnerable, darling sibling who is the kindest, gentlest soul. I can't imagine how much harder the situation must be when there is no obvious underlying disability and the person has capacity.

I have a few thoughts:

• There is a UK charity called Sibs that has a closed Facebook forum for siblings of people with disabilities and I think they may also include addiction within that (possibly). It's full of people trading stories like these, sometimes they're met with with practical suggestions and advice, and at the very least they're met with kindness and understanding.
• If I'm wrong and they don't include siblings of addicts, might you consider contacting https://addictionfamilysupport.org.uk/ ? I think we imagine these type of organisations as being there for people whose family member is in crisis or active addiction, but my understanding is that they're there for you any time, no matter what. Even in the grinding mundane in-between bits that can last years. You don't have to wait for a crisis before reaching out.
• My other thought is that part of your parents evasiveness may be because they're planning to leave the house to your sister and haven't got the balls to tell you. I would do all you can to prepare yourself for this financially and emotionally, just in case.

It's great to hear you've got a loving husband and children, it sounds like you're going to need them.

I’m sorry your conversation with your mum didn’t go well. It might have been something better suited to face to face rather than phone?

Do you know why your sister is as she is? Does she have any ND or mental / physical health issues that have been diagnosed? What was she like at school? Have you ever been able to talk to your parents about her without getting tangled up in all the emotion? Have they ever stood up to her or set boundaries of their own? It must be very disruptive to their own life to have her living there with all the drama she brings.

the bottom line though is that you can only set your own boundaries. You always have a choice, even if it’s a very hard one and there might not be any good options. There is nothing inevitable about you having to take your sister on.

why is it obvious that your sister always comes to your house with them? Don’t they ever come without her? Can you arrange to meet your mum or dad one-to-one?

If your parents aren't willing to have a sensible discussion about what happens to your sibling after they die, all you can do is make your position very clear to them.

They will probably leave the house to her and she won't be able to cope at all. Do you know what's in their will? Who are the executors? I very much doubt that your sister would be able to cope with organising the funeral and applying for probate.

Your parents need to know that you can't and won't be stepping up to support your sister to the extent that they have done. Could they afford to buy her a small supported living property now so that they can help her with the transition from living with them to living semi-independently?

Your parents have got their heads in the sand and I'm sure that they just expect you to step up and support her like they have done once they are no longer around. You need to disabuse them of that notion so that they can make sensible and realistic plans for your sister once they have gone.

Strongly agree; the sister needs to speak up.

OP, can I just ask, has anyone asked your sister directly how she plans to look after herself when your parents die, if she can't manage to do so now, and if so, what was her answer?

How about opening a conversation with your parents and your sister now, asking them how they expect her to survive when anything happens to them? This needs to be discussed in front of, and with your sister in my opinion, unless of course she actually has severe mental health problems, as she needs to be made aware that your parents won't live for ever, and that if they leave their assets to you jointly, she will NEED to move out. As you say, your parents have obviously been allowing your sister to brush this under the carpet for years, rather than forcing her to face it, but unless you want to end up in the mess that is likely to occur if this isn't dealt with now, then I think that you need to either force the issue, or be prepared to walk away from your sister and any inheritance that you might be expecting. Also, if you were to do this, how do you think your parents would react, ie, would they change the subject because they don't want to deal with it, or don't want to discuss it in front of her?

It’s a shame your parents aren’t more compassionate about you and what lies ahead.
I would now withdraw all contact from them all. Until your parents act and concrete plans are made I would hold onto that upset and anger, stay away completely and leave them to it. They have shot themselves in the foot.

Gosh it’s so difficult, isn’t it? As I said yesterday, we are in a similar situation with my brother. My parents are trying to purchase him a small property near to them, in the hope that they will be able to ease him in gently. Initially brother was defiant and against the suggestion. Hopefully they will turn a corner soon!

I’m miles away and our other sibling doesn’t want anything to do with the situation. Neither of us want messy legal fees, in an attempt to get our brother out of the family home when the time comes.

I’m sorry that you are in this position OP. I think it’s clear that your parents expect/ assume that you will care for your sister when they die. They’ll either leave your sister the house, saying she needs somewhere to live and you have a home, or split it between you, leaving you with all the admin/ dealing with her. All you can do is get really sure of your boundaries so that you can ensure that you stay within them. Your parents won’t change now. I’m sorry.

You are entitled to feel that way. Expressing concern is being compassionate. You are worried about what will happen once she’s alone.
I’d want to speak to your mum without sister present.
If she won’t listen I do think a letter may be for best saying you are concerned about sister and how she will manage on her own in future. Be clear you aren’t going to step into a parental role. She is very vulnerable to being preyed upon.

I think her history of addiction could provide a way into this discussion. Your sister has already said that she doesn’t want to move out because she feels vulnerable to old patterns of behaviour. Your parents need a will, or a new arrangement that can help protect your sister from herself in the future.
My DSis is in her 50s and two years younger than me. She has autism, epilepsy and one or two other health conditions. She managed a retail job for a few years in her 40s but lost it due to Covid and it feels unrealistic to suppose that her limited experience could get her rehired in this job market. She has stopped applying. The whole situation is held together by the fact that my parents have been able to provide for her financially and it sounds as though your parents also have the ability to support your sister. Mine bought her a small terraced house which is 5 minutes walk from them about 20 years ago. This was placed into a trust so that she cannot sell it or move someone in because her autism means that she could be manipulated by someone who was determined to take advantage of her very trusting nature.
Your sister could be preyed upon by drug dealers, other addicts and debt collectors. It doesn’t seem sensible for her to be handed a house which she could be threatened or manipulated into sharing or selling. If your parents buy somewhere for her, she needs to be protected from herself and you could offer to help with this. Could they perhaps buy something small now and rent it out and she could move into it when the family home needs to be sold? She might change her mind and decide to live in it once it actually exists?
My DSis is only semi independent. She lives alone day-to-day but she needs support if anything goes wrong in the house and, if we do not go and help her with the house every few months, it does end up looking like one of those houses from the “Extreme Cleaners” type of tv shows. My mum is still alive but I have accepted that when she dies, my sister will probably need to move close to me (she’s about 200 miles away now) but, because of the slow introduction of independence, she probably won’t need to live with me.

There may be different types but I’d be cautious of having all the money in retirement properties that are hard to sell. The amount of stories I’ve seen on families struggling to sell them and accruing charges.

Maybe if it’s just for the sister but a degree of separation from the parents seems like a good idea.

Depending on how much the estate is likely to be worth is it possible to approach it from an inheritance tax standpoint? Frame it as not wanting DSIS to end up
with a huge tax bill?
I would encourage them to be looking at downsizing and buying two smaller properties close by so DSIS can transition into living independently.

Does she not claim any benefits at all? I’m sure she could, were a small place made available to her, and it'd pay her rent too.

I wanted to ask if you reckon she is prepared for the sad but inevitable event of Mum or Dad passing away, and then the remaining spouse becoming sick from the loss, and in effect very much older suddenly, and in need of 24/7 care.
How on Earth would that scenario play out? Or if, God forbid, residential care is required and the house must be sold to pay for that?.
In short, is she aware of the troubles that may be in store while she lives rent free and idle in the house of ageing parents : that could all change very dramatically due to the care needs of said elders.
She really ought to be trying a bit of self sufficiency asap, for her own sake.

(All of which supports the suggestion of their buying two small adjacent units somewhere, if funds permit it.)

[I know in my own family, my maternal grandparents went almost overnight from hale and hearty 90-year olds to one bewildered old gent in a nearby care home suffering from dementia, and his adoring, jolly wife of 70+ years turning her face to the wall and willing herself to catch pneumonia (which she did, with the swift, predictable result)
A close family member of about 70 had been living with them as their housekeeper-cum-nurse, and she was pretty much turfed out into the night so that an actual nurse might move in to care for grandma.
By order of my uncle, who turned out to have their POA. The son, therefore the beloved child.
He came out of the shadows like a giant bat, and turned all the angles in this sad mess to his own advantage, though he'd not lifted a finger to help his parents, ever.
It was all a horror show, and it’s at such times that depths of heartlessness are plumbed in families, once any whiff of sharing a care burden clashes with the eager wait for a will to be read.

If you can exert any soft influence on the QT now, you might be sparing everyone involved many arguments, harsh words, and above all, spare an anxious and even bereaved parent a goodi deal of anguish and confusion.

It is a good suggestion for your parents to buy two units close to each other in a supported over 50's lifestyle set up, close to networks and medical care that they know.
They can ease DS into living there.