AIBU to discuss GCSE and A-level realities with my Year 8 daughter?

@MeridaBrave You will need A level maths for any science degree that’s involving physics. Maybe not for biology and psychology but chemistry - maths is needed. If dc want economics, then maths is almost always wanted. So yes, a few science degrees at lower level unis and a few other science degrees won’t require maths but to be secure on the courses, maths is often required.

Op tutoring is seen as a bad tiring thing but my DC who didn't like school thrived with her tutor because it was personal ,tailored to her and all at her pace.

You have plenty of time to act now and get a tutor to literally start from the bottom up.
Maybe even a primary teacher maths tutor to go from the foundations.

Generally, anyone who wants to do triple science will be able to - it's what the government has promised. Most A-level courses will accept a grade 6 around here for Science, though, speaking from experience, even in the "softer Sciences" (wtf are those), the demand is high for mathematical understanding. You are not going to pass Biology without a decent understanding of statistics and how to use and manipulate formulae, and those who struggled with Maths at GCSE also struggled with this side of things. Even worse for Psychology, Chemistry and Physics.

I'd advise taking triple Science - they're entitled to it - and seeing whether they actually still like the subject by the end of it.

Accelerated 😂 Classic. Can’t talk about being a writer without making a typo, of course.

Honestly the choices at gcse are very limited, certainly for my DC. Top 3 science classes did triple science rest did double (so can still do science a levels). Choose one of history geog. Choose a language unless school thing likely to fail. Choose one more subject (2 more if no language). So everyone does maths and science gcse. Worry about a level choices during year 11.

You dont need a level maths for science a levels and a 6 at gcse should be ok for chemistry or biology. Physics had a lot of maths so less good for someone who struggles with maths.

I’d get her a maths tutor and just say let’s try and improve your maths to help with the harder science in uear 11.

I would be looking to support her ambition by helping her to get her maths to where it needs to be. Given the amount of school she has missed, it is likely that there are some gaps in some of the basics and this will make grasping some of the secondary school content difficult, even if she’s capable enough of doing well. A good maths tutor should identify and fill in these gaps.

Bear in mind that it’s not just about getting the minimum grade to be allowed to do the course; if strong mathematical understanding isn’t there it could make further study more difficult. When I was in sixth form, some of the more average ability students who’d worked really hard to get Bs in maths and science at GCSE really struggled when it came to the A Levels in these subjects - it’s a big step up. She’ll fare better down the line if her maths is really secure rather than just-about-good-enough to be accepted to start the science A Levels. .

Having a bright academic child with physical health needs and complex neurodivergence who’s only ever been in part time school, and moving to a special school (for academically able young people) where they will be better supported but have a reduced curriculum and GCSE options… in your situation I wouldn’t hesitate to drop another subject to make space for some additional work on maths, if doing this on top of school would be too much. People who are saying bright children shouldn’t drop subjects aren’t factoring in the health needs. What’s true in an ideal world and what’s true in the reality of a situation are two different things!

We probably could have just about pushed full time school if our child had given up their extra-curriculars - 2 areas of natural talent and passion, either of which could ultimately become a career if they so choose - but we opted to support our child’s ambitions and school was always supportive.

And in your situation, it’s maths. It’s a core academic subject and could prove very useful even if your daughter changed her mind about what she wants to do long term.

If she is behind on maths now then she will suffer at Uni if she goes on to do a hard science or engineering course as Physics and even Chemisty can have a lot of maths in it.

If she is going for one of the softer sciences it's more likely she can do it without having significant maths capability.

You need to find out what her aspirations are in science and what she wants to do, then make sure she gets the maths capability in order to be able to do that.

That may be extra tutition for example if she wants to do mathematical sciences.

Honestly my mum spent ages “managing my expectations” and it made me feel like I was not good at anything and really broke my confidence.

I’m a teacher now of 22 years. and my advice is two fold. Encourage her to talk about options. She will probably change her mind a lot. But She might have to make her options in year 8, so she might not. What I find is students are generally aware of their own abilities, it depends on maturity and personality- is she a realist or fantasist?
Secondly, spend a lot of time going through her school reports and discussing how that would be at GSCE. Go with fact not opinion and let her draw her own conclusion. At GSCE A 9 is 90% 8 is 80% etc . This is incredibly crude but useful tools.

This is an awkward age to decide about what you want to do with your life, most kids haven’t seen the full scope of careers available. I would take chances when something arises in conversation to talk about different careers, different subjects, different routes into careers.
Once they were into their exam years I would remind mine that these exams were like a gateway, you had to get enough to get to the next stage and in many cases could then leave some subjects behind.
If your daughter is getting good grades in physics she must be able to grasp some maths type concepts so maybe a few sessions with a tutor who would be able to relate the maths to the physics would help. She may have effectively developed a mental block about maths and setting really doesn’t help. Don’t know if there are any maths games online, not designed to follow the curriculum but just to develop an enjoyment of it.
The further through the school system you go the more the understanding of the underlying principles and the application of them replaces the learning facts/rote learning.
When she gets to the stage of applying to 6th form college if her science grades are high could you ask for special consideration on maths given that she had missed so much school for medical reasons?

All the tutoring in the world is not going to make A level maths accessible. GCSE absolutely, A level no way. Having said that A level maths is not the only way to go. Have a look at your local colleges they may well be offering T levels in Engineering or Science. These are difficult, respected qualifications but with out the all of nothing of A level maths.
Start having conversations about how there are different ways to get what you want and A levels is only one. I will be spending next week having conversations with students who have got 4s at GCSEs - decent results - telling them that A levels isn’t an option BUT there are plenty of other courses that will really help them on their career.

My life would be easier and there would be less tears if parents didn’t obsess over A levels. Only around 40% of young people do A levels, there are loads of really excellent alternatives these days - including apprenticeships.

Exactly this! Find a way to support her goals, you are lucky she has ambition, please encourage her!

@TeenLifeMumthe op has talked about missing primary but has attended this year I think? I’d still talk to the school and make a plan. Extra tuition is not great if child is unwell too! Extra pressure.

Focus on core subjects if child has limited attendance. Dd attended a hospital linked secondary level day school. Allstudents had different health issues. They focused on english maths science art (great programnes like theatre workshopping photo etc) . Many were v bright. Many went on to a levels uni

Not if the child isn't well enough. The OP needs to be pragmatic.

Yes I think this is all it needs. There is time to sort out the maths and age may yet change her mind. Around this age DC had been convinced for some time they were going to do medicine but by GCSE they had decided they didn't like science enough.

OP I went from:

• failing 11+ on maths and having no confidence (got into grammar on appeal)
• being in set 5 of 8 for maths in year 9 (I think the lower down the set the smaller the student numbers)
• having an amazing teacher and going up to set 3
• being moved up to set 1

Once maths 'clicks' you can make an amazing amount of progress.

You said no to tutor but what about on weekends or school holidays?

I don’t believe bright dc should be encouraged to give up subjects. There is time to tutor and re-evaluate next year. In y7, maths is pretty separate from physics. From GCSEs onwards it’s not. So there’s a reason why anyone doing a degree with a physics component needs A level maths to access the course. It’s not that you need all of the syllabus but it’s the subject that’s required to get on the courses.

We don’t really know what the school thinks about how her education should be managed and this should be the next step for the op.

Don’t clip her wings before she’s even had a chance. She wants to do maths and science, get her some support with tutoring or tutor her yourself. If she genuinely has the drive, she can do it with the right support.

I didn’t grow up in the UK so different educational system and different exams. But when I took exams at roughly Y6/7 (think like SATS now), I did so poorly in maths that the head teacher had a meeting with my parents and told them in front of me that I was ‘unlikely to ever finish school’ with results like that. My parents put me in a secondary school where they were willing to support me. Within a year, I was moved ahead a whole year in maths. So I was, say, Y8 but doing maths with Y9.

Not only did I finish school, unlike projected, but I finished top ranked in my year. I went on to get an undergraduate degree, then a master’s and a PhD in a science. It’s absolutely doable, but you need to be there to hold her up and support her in the trenches if it’s what she wants to do.

OP - crack on with what you are doing.

Talk to your daughter, ask her how she might like to go about raising her maths grades. She might have ideas of her own, but discuss the suggestions here - or maybe you could find a tutor who would go to the school to do maths during the lessons you could consider dropping anyway.

Speak to the school as early as possible about the options and whether they would support this.

You sound like you are encouraging but realistic, and not overly pushy.

Op, I chose YABU (just for stressing in Year 8) but after all your updates I think both you and her are doing an amazing job, and can see why you worry. Sending best wishes 💐

This! 👏

If she missed the maths from primary school she might be missing some of the foundation principles taught in the early years that makes maths in secondary easier.

I imagine a lot of the focus will be on getting her to understand the maths work she is doing currently rather than going back over the maths taught on years 3-6. It might be worth going back over much earlier work until some of those aspects are at her finger tips and then the current work will be less draining on her resources.

Has she been assessed for dyscalculia? I did some work with a friends GCSE aged child in maths and science and it became quite quickly apparently that her problem with the science was the grasp of numbers and that was holding her back in chemistry and physics. She is now being assessed for dyscalculia. If she wants to follow a career in the sciences really a decent background level of numeral literacy is required. My partner got a B in GCSE maths and that has been enough at times to limit his understanding in his science. Something else to consider is degree courses - I did a chemistry degree and most required a level maths and those that didn't had additional maths classes alongside the core subject in the first year. At the university I went to we had to pass this course to get on to year 2 and there were additional courses everyone had to take which covered principles that part of year 1 maths degrees.

I don't think it is too soon to be looking at what needs to happen over the next 4-6 years should she want to follow the path she wants to go down

I don't read your posts as writing her off OP.
She will obviously already be aware of the impact her illness has had and it sounds like she's doing an amazing job of keeping up with the pace despite it all. I'm sure you are doing and have always done what you can to keep her above water with it all too.
You are not wrong to worry about her future mental wellbeing either! It can swing both ways and throwing everything you have at Maths in one go might lead to her getting where she wants and being too mentally exhausted to actually enjoy the reward. Likewise not throwing enough at it might mean she doesn't quite meet the mark.

Firstly you can resit GCSEs and SEND(including medical) can be reasonable grounds to appeal A-Level offers too in some cases.
Secondly, what does she want to do that particular A-Level for, look at alternative avenues to get her to that as well as the traditional A-Level route, there is often more than one way.
And worst case scenario, she doesn't necessarily need to achieve that A-Level directly after her GCSEs. She's shown she can do it, but given her circumstances it's not unreasonable to understand she might need an extra year before she undertakes the A-Level.

I don't think it needs a wait and watch, or a sit down you might not make it chat. Explore with her what her interest is, where she wants to go by the end of it all, and then you can research together how she gets there. Talk to her, does she feel capable of taking on tutoring? Does she want to see out year 8 and see how she's doing first maybe? Give her any alternative routes you may find (AI can be quite helpful for this)
Give her some autonomy over the decisions, she's clearly driven and clever.
Well done for giving her the scaffolding to get as far as she has.

Agree to be pragmatic as to things like (a) what provision she attends later on; (b) the timing of milestones; (c) timetable and subjects now (breadth is important but her time is a stretched resource given her health needs); (d) what type of science qualifications or careers she considers; (e) her possible future maths gcse grade (as learning is not really so linear and she is clearly able). Speaking as a teacher, I think passion means an awful lot and even if pursuing it leads to a course correction in response to information en route, that is still an excellent route. You are carrying a lot of feelings here having to do so much for your daughter so I would seek support for you and just tell her strong maths will be the foundation of future work and study in this field so let's go little and often and see where we end up.

Could you talk to school about longer term options. I'm wondering if she could do get gcses over 3 years or take a year between gcse and a level to focus on maths and anything else.

It sounds like given the time off and I'll health she just needs to take more time than most people