To think climate change will force a complete rethinking about immigration?

To make shareholders richer. We know the rich are struggling greatly and we need to help them as much as possible!

You misunderstand.
I did not say "should". I was merely describing the way a modern economy works, from the perspective of the whole country, not from the perspective of any one individual.
A growing economy needs an increasing population and an increasing money supply. It matters not to that economy just which individuals are doing the producing and which are doing the consuming, as long as there is enough production and consumption going on.

Of course this is totally unsustainable. You can't have infinite economic growth on a finite planet. But do you hear any politician saying we should abandon economic growth?

Controlled immigration - At least enough money to not have to rely on the NHS or state schools. Then enough earnings to be a net contributor. We've enough people taking out more than they are paying in. Lets not bring in more.

I don’t see how this can function. There needs to be external money coming in to fund the state. Northern Korea still trades outside to get money to fund things.

Just using state money so people act as a middle person to hand it over doesn’t do much. You could use that funding directly if it exists, by lowering taxes or grants. The consumer isn’t necessary as a way to hand over state money.

We need a referendum on immigration, and then the government can just get on with what's decided without worrying about the left or the right of their parties.

1. Zero or near zero immigration
2. controlled immigration
3. Open borders

Why growth though? It’s a serious question. Why does the economy always have to grow?

Is this a joke? People should earn money and spend the money they, themself earned. Not spend money that someone else earned, paid tax on, for someone else to spend! I don't think I've ever read anything so bonkers. So people on benefits are doing the country a favour by spending someone else's money?!!!

The new arrivals are still consumers, and consumers are essential for the economy. The state gives them money (just like British people on low incomes), which they spend, and the companies they spend their money at benefit from having customers, so grow their profit. The state then taxes that profit.

The distinction between the state and the private sector is not nearly as important as is often made out. Imagine a 100% communist country where absolutely everything was owned by the state, so they pay the population (wages, salary, or benefits) and get money back from the population spending in state-owned businesses. They would still need population growth to maintain economic growth.

Im not a fan of summer I love winter and all the weather mumsnet hates.

Its currently 32 in my area now, but im at a cool 20 indoors.
My change was getting air con.

What @angelos02 has written is the truth. Everyone is pissing in the wind with net zero and the like. If we truly gave a shit we wouldn’t be wasting resources by posting on MN.

I think harder borders will get put in place, it’s just a matter of time. Poland has taken loads of Ukrainian refugees but won’t take others. It can be done, maybe in our lifetime or our children’s but the scramble for resources will only intensify.

Well my viewpoint would be - why would it be expected of a small country with a huge population for its size to accept mass migration when there are much larger, more sparsely populated countries that are still habitable between the starting nation and the UK?

Soon the country will not be able to maintain its current set up of social support due to cost and increasing population. The UK will get worse, people will be sick and in poverty, why accelerate that for people from another country who are most likely
to come here and also live in poverty? Wouldn’t they rather live somewhere closer to their homeland with a more similar culture, language and people who look like them than live in poverty in a nation that is hostile and declining socially?

I assume if it was ever done the Australian version would apply.

Well there’s two things about that. (Edit - no didn’t become 2 😂)

1. your right for the British population as it stands.
2. we don’t have many children culturally but new arrivals have much more. They aren’t just replacing they are growing
3. thats really a good thing if we decrease our population because we currently can’t feed ourselves. With climate change and an extra harvest a year this might bring and the added diversity of veg then we might be able to but with this number of people but our soils will then be another problem. Hopefully we can figure that out.
4. We can’t grow indefinitely. So we have to sort this problem at some point.
5. I think economy will be the least of our problems when half the world is burning and we don’t have enough food.

Because river catchments don't follow national borders.

Yes, that's true, and having been born in NZ and raised in Australia I tend to trust them.

I suppose I mentally dismiss that part of the world in discussions of contributions to climate change because it's so sparsely populated. But that's absurd, especially considering that NZ is arguably the most car-dependent country on the planet, and Australia isn't much better.

No-one is going to shoot them or let them drown. The Navy would simply refuse any order from politicians to do so. The Oath of Allegiance is to the king and the law, not to the government. That oath, and the Law of the Sea, trump the whims of politicians.

@OneMoreBanana I think this a serious concern, and one we should be thinking about internationally. Of course there's going to be an exodus from the global South. It's about how we manage it. I'm 60, so I think it's the generations behind who are going to have to deal with this, but it's definitely going to happen and we should be planning now.

Aid won't stop global warming (whatever you think is causing it) and people will have to move if parts of the earth become uninhabitable. They'll be desperate.

The social contract is broken. I think the way we are going we will eventually have to wave goodbye to the welfare state and the NHS and state pensions. None of this is sustainable with the balance of those relying on state support becoming larger.

A lot was achieved in past centuries with a population a fraction of what it is now. It’s worth remembering that there was mass unemployment after the Napoleonic wars ended and the harvest failures that followed.

With the advantages of technology and greater scientific understanding it is possible to do more with less. There are few problems that would not benefit from a much lower global population.

Ban Shein, Temu, Cider crap etc.
Close golf courses and rewild them.
Ban household and leisure pesticide use, and put additional restrictions on use for agriculture.
Stricter controls on agricultural fertiliser use.
Higher taxes on commercial flights.
Restrict food to seasonal goods only. This will have a positive effect on local growers, boosting the UK farming sector.
Ban concreting over of front and back gardens. Ditto plastic lawns.

That's just the start
We don't need new kitchens and cars and phones every 3 years etc.

Are the rich from the Middle East permanently living in London or simply owning property there, amongst other places?
I don’t think they’re exactly fleeing their hot countries.
I agree with pp, it’s about mitigating the effects of heat, and wealth makes that possible.
There are also plenty of people from the UK living comfortably in places like Dubai.

Of course there isn’t a national grid for water. Water in Wales is taken to cities in England. Lake Vrnwy was literally created, and people moved out of their homes, to supply Liverpool. Severn Trent supples water from Wales to Birmingham.

But what of the state funding for lower economic arrivals? Is it always better to have someone than not if they require state funding?

They might want to come here. We can just say no and disallow them. Only UK citizens have a full unquestionable right to stay here. The Irish are also welcome subject to very certain and minimal restrictions, that's it!

You may need fewer workers with better automation of production, but you still need consumers (hence the argument for UBI).

The solution is to abandon economic growth.