To get so stressed about my kids’ car behaviour

I had this with mine when they were little. We were on our way to grandparents house and I pulled over in a parking bay and turned the engine off. Didn't say anything just sat in the car and waited.

This, it is also this.

My kids knew from about age 2 that they had to do as they were told. It has to be ingrained early and reinforced with constant, consistent discipline. Sometimes you enforcing a boundary will mean they kick off or cry, yep thats life you keep on being firm. Or you end with 14 year olds who havent learned to mind & respect you, and ignore curfews etc.

A pp said this a few pages ago, and I can't find it now but I think she's right.

You're looking at the car problem in isolation but the root of the problem is that the kids don't do what you tell them. Well behaved kids want to be praised by their parents and are afraid of disappointing them. Yes, afraid. They should know that you'll follow through with real consequences and life will be grey and boring unless they behave better, and it'll be happy and fun if they do.

You are probably being much more permissive in everyday life than you realise.

That's not your fault, I think it's partly because families have become more isolated than in previous generations (post lockdown etc) so you don't get a feel for how strict other families are being and there's a vague feeling you ought to be gentle and smiley all the time.

But this car behaviour can't have come out of nowhere.

OP you said it is more likely on the way home: Are there serious consequences when you arrive? I think you really need to go OTT so that if they misbehave on the way home they will be anxious about the consequences. It is for their own good and they will remember whatever you decide is the harshest punishment.

Put top over head without putting their arms in sleeves, tuck sleeves behind backs then buckle them in firmly.

It will take the little sods longer to get free.

No but you can set off earlier.
Plan when you are going to start the new regime so that if you have to go back home they are missing something they like eg a trip to soft play or somewhere rather than starting on your way to work.
I know exactly what you mean about narrow lanes, and passing places, I live rurally too, but surely you have to stop and fasten them in again anyway you can't carry on with them unrestrained.
These children know that they have the upper hand in the car, you need to flip that around.

We live in a rural area and I do just pull over. Sometimes we are a while, sometimes we miss stuff. It doesn't matter because they both now know there is absolutely zero way I will drive if I'm distracted or if they're not buckled in. No way.
I think you need to go zero tolerance of it. I also saw the police pull a family over with two kids unbuckled and scrapping in the car, I don't know what happened but you're at risk of getting a super serious fine for it. As well as obviously the risk to all lives including other people's around you.
I'd sit them down before going somewhere, calmly explain "if there is any fighting, shouting or unbuckled seats we will either stop till you behave or immediately turn around and come home. If we make it safely here is a reward you'll get whatever they love. To help you, we will play an audio story and play a game in the car". Then absolutely stick to your guns. You cannot drive if you aren't safe, you just can't. They won't believe you on safety if you don't stick to that.

You are an absolute duty to stop the car if they release their seatbelt. Hazards on and just stop.

These are illegal in the UK

It's illegal to modify the buckle with a lock. It must be visible and easily accessible. The AA did a full summary some years ago.

If they undo it you need to stop immediately with your hazards on wherever you are. Continuing at all is unlawful with an unrestrained child.

I would be giving some consideration to not taking them in the car at all and it if you do only one at a time. They sound like a hazard to themselves, you and everyone else on the road!!

This. Give them a warning and then deliver the consequences.

To be honest, mine would have had an absolute bollocking well before now, but I have a big age gap between mine so I appreciate that I don’t have experience of dealing with two who are close in age and runs each other up. It’s clearly harder than dealing with one 3/5 year old.

Your 5 year old is old enough to know better. If he messes about like this on a school trip he will be told off by teaching staff - as I saw when I parent helped on trips in infants. One boy who kept taking his belt off was not allowed to sit with a friend on the homeward journey . A teacher sat next to him which he didn’t like and I remember her talking to the child’s mum when we got back to school.

I would focus on your eldest. He needs to be told how very wrong this is and that he will not be going to (wherever) if he does not stop doing this. Then pick a great activity, set off - and turn back and go back home.

Amazon.co.uk : car seat buckle guard https://share.google/xP33I3ZRMkSQ9SXuk

No . They are not safe and probably illegal

you need to stop being so soft. Its a major safety issue . Drastic measures are needed. Scream at them to sit down and buckle up, they will be shocked and wont do it again.sometimes you have to be the scary person

I drove to the nearest police station. 3 year old sobbed and begged to go home.

It sounds like your 5 yr old is bored when in the car. What activities are available to him during journeys? Songs? Nursery rhymes? I spy? Or you could tell him to let you know when he’s seen a yellow car, a red lorry, a goat/dog/cow etc and praise him massively when he does so.
Google search for car games.

You could also tell him he’s got to check everyone is belted in correctly, including the adults and if everyone stays belted in he’ll get x amount of stickers on his chart.

I’m sure you know the law on this @theremightbesevennowso it’s very important to solve this.
Royal Society for Prevention on Accidents also has info.
https://www.childcarseats.org.uk/choosing-using/children-undoing-their-harness/

My son did this once and I panicked and absolutely lost my sh*t and screamed at him (he was 4). I didnt scream anything abusive or unreasonable but I needed him to understand that he was never ever going to do that again. I screamed that it was dangerous, illegal and that he was going to kill us all or someone else in another car and that we'd all be locked in prison. He never did it again. You obviously need to make this clear to him because you clearly havent.

Can you plan trips so you know where the neatest safe places for pulling over are? Then use them. Give them a proper, firm, telling off.

The next few essential trips - leave early. Like, REALLY early. "Ws'll go for cake first if theres time, but Im not going to drive the car if youre not sitting properly as it is dangerous".
The trips for something nice can be ditched. Trips home - even if for dinner- will be paused at first misdemeanor, then whenever they so much as squeak or wriggle therafter. A proper telling off each time.

Not in the front.

Carrot and stick. I hate screens, but I think in this case I would let them have screens in the car and any kid that acts up has it removed.

I also hate shouting and have only really let rip once and it was in the car. DC have not really messed about in the car since. I think it was so effective as I really don't shout (get plenty of other things wrong, so this isn't a boast), so it was a shock factor.

I had three autistic boys. I tolerated a lot but never safety issues like this. I’d pull over each time.

I was going to suggest taking them to a police car safety thing or a pcso drop in (there’s one at library and village hall near me every month) and get them to explain to children to reinforce how dangerous it is.
I’d probably limit trips to essential only.
Before trips set out expectations.
I do think safety issues like this justify an extremely angry reaction so they know they have crossed a huge line. Not a wishy washy you need to put on your seatbelt darling.

You stop, strap them in, turn around and go home. At home they are not given any treats, it's quiet play or bed. It's that simple.

They clearly have no respect for boundaries and despite what you say, I suspect they are not as well behaved as you think. It just isn't as serious so you won't notice it.

I do that when I share with my kids 🤣

tell them - Let’s go to the park. If you unstrap your seat belt we will come home .

simple clear unequivocal language and consequence explained.

if they unstrap - you pull over - you restrap them on and tell them off for undoing the seat belt:

then you drive home. No trip to the park.

should they unstrap again you repeat as many times as you need to and get them home.

The. You firmly tell them because you instrepped your seat belt er did not go to the park.

you have to be the adult. You have to parent. You have to show them this is a completely inflexible boundary.

a few missed trips of fun - they will get the message. And understand that seat belts are non negotiable.

I think this is a good tactic tbh. They have to understand the safety consequences. And I bet if you did drive them into a station they copper behind the counter would willingly play along.