Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

Is a badge not. Is a badge not what? An exam? Then no, it's not, not in the same way as, say a music or dance exam. Most cub badges with a few exceptions (and I assume brownie badges) do not require a certain level of talent or skill to be reached.

Badge or certificate - there's no obvious difference. It's an acknowledgement that the person has done well or at least passed. There's a huge difference between a cub (brownie) badge, and, say a music exam. We do about three badges per term - so about 2 or 3 weeks work on each one. Hardly the same as doing a music exam once or twice per year. The same level of achievement cannot possibly be expected. Plus you have a whole range of kids with a whole range of different skills and interests. So for each cub badge, in the two to three weeks, there will be be whole range of levels of achievement. So no, I'm not failing Johnny because he wasn't quite as talented as Jimmy. As long as Johnny put the effort in, he deserves the badge just as much as Jimmy - perhaps more so.

Because, one again, a cub badge IS NOT AN EXAM.

Badge or certificate - there's no obvious difference. It's an acknowledgement that the person has done well or at least passed.

So something like the entertainment badge, is it not an acknowledgement of a skill? Or is it an acknowledgement that someone has put in sufficient effort in the opinion of the leader.

Would it not upset the child when they are older to realise it was perceived effort, not result, that was behind it?

Maybe it’s an ND thing but I would feel a bit uncomfortable about being awarded for a bad performance.

She didn't have to sing, she could have done any kind of performance. She made the mistake of 1) choosing to sing (presumably on the assumption she then wouldn't need to practise, and failing to take into account the fact that she couldn't sing in tune) 2) choosing a boring hymn (presumably because she didn't want to make the effort to find something new and to learn it), 3) not practising it (because she assumed that it was impossible to fail as long as you stood up on stage, and she couldn't be bothered to practise).
Performing in front of an audience isn't primarily about having fun, it's about entertaining the audience. And yes, it's often scary. But she didn't deserve to pass just for standing on a stage for 2 minutes and singing something boring extremely badly. I've been to lots of awful musical performances at primary school (most young children can't play the violin in tune), but at least those children had practised hard and made a genuine effort at doing something difficult.
If she'd got the badge it would have encouraged her to double down on believing that she would always be rewarded for anything she did, however crap and lazy it was, and never needed to make any effort.
But as I've said, I think most of the responsibility here goes on poor communication by the brownie leaders. The judges simply did their job. The whole concept of being judged involves the possibility of doing badly.

It's not a music exam, where it's fair enough that you must reach a certain level to pass the exam. It's a Brownie badge!!

And yes, as a leader I can certainly tell at a meeting which cubs are focused and trying, as opposed to messing around not really trying. Is that really so surprising?

Genuinely, if they questioned why they got a badge for doing something badly, I would tell them that while the end result may not have been perfect, if they've done it to the best of their ability, they deserve the badge as much as the child who is naturally a great singer. Because, once again, it's not about the level of ability reached, but the effort made to get there. It's not an exam. It's a badge!

It is if you are going to be handing out badges. And it’s not about talent necessarily - if someone doesn’t have the natural talent, fhey can work on something and become good at it or find it impossible to be good regardless of effort

Or what is the purpose of them? To say that in the opinion of the leaders you made an effort? Or are they to mark an achievement?

I find it impressive that leaders know when someone makes an effort versus someone who has made less effort but achieved a better result.

I can’t sing for shit. If I had ‘earned’ a badge for doing it because I put the effort in, that would be meaningless.

As the children get older, do they not question why they got an award for something they did badly, or do they not ever realise they did do it badly? It’s a genuine question.

Nevertheless you posted a comment on a public forum so that is open for comment from others on the thread.

Either PM or accept that anything is up for comment

Did you miss the bit where I said about having fun, trying new things. Perhaps they didn't need to learn a skill for the Entertainer badge - just take part in a show and have fun! I doubt very much that a Brownie Entertainer badge specifies that only children who can sing in tune should take part. For some children, it will take a lot of bravery to get up in front of an audience to sing.

I will never forget a child at my son's school who was the most nervous child I've ever known. At the Christmas play he got up and sang a solo. It was totally out of tune, but it was one of the most beautiful things I ever heard. There wasn't a dry eye in the house.

Op, I’m a similar age to you, and I can remember some very strange adults being involved in the world of Brownies & Guides. Weird, unkind people, nothing sexually inappropriate but people with a nasty side to them which they took out on kids.

The OP didn't learn a skill though, did she? She got onto the stage and sang a song she'd sung in school Assembly. Very badly. No skill-learning was involved. Where badges involve someone judging that a skill has actually been learned, then that skill needs to be demonstrated. This is helping children to get used to thinking about what's involved, planning it, doing the work, etc. That's very useful learning, which they are deprived of if they pretty much just need to show up for the badge presentation.

Exactly. I have seen young people leaving school and starting work and they are so used to having effusive praise for putting in the effort that they lose sight of the fact that it is irrelevant and that only results matter.
Kids can understand that there are things they may be good at and things they may not be good at. But giving them badges because they have bothered to turn up isn’t the way forward

There are plenty of places where young people learn they they are good at some things and not so good at others. School exams, auditions for plays, music exams, dance exams, sports clubs where they have to be good enough to make the team etc. Some of the badges at scouts/guides have a level to be achieved, especially in the older sections. In fact, there's a lot of pressure on young people these days to excel at certain activities.

But at Brownies? Nah. It should be all about having fun, making friends, learning to give back to the community, learning skills and introducing children to lots of activities - some of which they may go on to develop a greater interest in. If a leader is going to knock the confidence of a young child by failing them due to lack of perceived talent, then all you are doing at that age is putting them off an activity that they may otherwise have gone on to enjoy.

only results matter. What a sad way of looking at things that a child enjoys. That shouldn't be the ethos of scouting/guiding.

I don't think we are in any danger of an epidemic of shit cooks who think they're brilliant because they got the baker badge in Brownies. Or of people in general thinking they are brilliant at something when they're not because they did the Brownie badge in it. I don't think Brownies is to blame even for all those shitty X Factor singers. (The producers who waved them through several auditions before they reached the televised one were to blame for that. It made them think they were passing because they were good, not because they were going to make brilliant TV by utterly humiliating themselves.)

If all these kids had just passed the badge, assuming no truly epic disaster (and then they could be encouraged to use what they learn from that to try again), then they probably wouldn't even remember they'd done it. It's become a seared in memory because they were made to feel shit about it, and it put plenty of them off doing the activity long term.

Not missing the point at all. But effort is not measurable and counts for little in any case.
A badge should be an indicator of being able to do something to a set standard. If it’s given to kids for effort, they are going to have a shock when they get older and realise that the burnt cakes or whatever that they produced in Brownies weren’t very good and not really deserving of praise and award

Of course effort is measurable - at least in the sense that a guide or scout leader will be able to tell when someone is trying, and when they are messing around.

Not all badges have a 'set standard'. For instance, in cubs, the Art Badge will say 'make a clay model' or 'make a poster'. As long as those things are done with a decent effort on the part of the child, as a cub leader, I'm awarding the badge.

There are some badges that require a bit more of a standard ie the skater badge says 'demonstrate three manoeuvres', swimmer will say 'swim 25 meters'. So that's a bit more cut and dried - but actually, at the end of the day, the leader does have a bit of leeway to award the badge anyway, especially in the case of disabilities/sen etc.

I'm never failing a cub at the chef badge because they burnt some food - as long as they made the effort, and it wasn't because they didn't try.

I think many people here are muddling up the idea of badges with exams, such as music or ballet exams. It's really not the same thing.

Its honestly such a shame as adults you should want children to feel good about themselves I was in a church group as an adult helping in a holiday kids club type thing we had one child who wrote out something but was too embarrassed to read it so another child was going to read it out except it was a wall of text LITERALLY nobreaksnospacesjustwords and "poorly spelt" words too BUT they were mostly spelled phonetically and I could read it so myself and another lady frantically translated and wrote out the entire piece minutes before the performance slapped it together he was so happy his mom was so proud and we were relieved we pulled it off 😀

I was stopped from being in the recorder choir for playing left handed at around the same age I was a musical child i could genuinely been good at an instrument I could sight read notes sing well and compose musical intros as part of various group (when I was older obviously) but because I was singled out mocked and rejected made to feel less than I refused to put myself out there again with an instrument I would sing in a choir because you cant be a left handed singer so you cant "look odd and strange" but no instruments my mom went to the school and asked why I was the only girl not allowed to play (boys did something else) she was clearly told it was because I played left handed my mom explained I was ambidextrous i could most likely play right handed would they let me try...no ridiculous suggestion my mom was FUMING

The rejected remember the injustice stings and adults can suck

Fair point, and point taken. Thanks for making it nicely.

Same here... I can stil feel the shame.
Never mind though... never stopped me singing Smack my Bitch up at full volume.😂

I’m with you, OP! Failed my Jester’s Badge by Peggy Crabtree, the District Commissioner because my acting was not of a sufficiently high standard, for a little play we had written. The other four Brownies passed. I never went near a stage again. Apparently I didn’t sound frightened enough when the ghost appeared.

That's fine, but it's an open public space and you can't bar people from "wading in" because whatever. Anyone can respond to anything you post on a public thread. Just ignore it if you don't want to engage.

I wouldn’t PM another user in this particular scenario as that could look weird, as I was offering to send her something. I made the offer openly on the thread so that it wouldn’t look weird, and she could indicate whether she wanted to accept the offer or not. It wasn’t for anyone else to stick their oar in on what was clearly an offer from one user to another. It wasn’t a discussion point.

No, that's not how it works. You want a private conversation, that's what PM is for. Anyone can enter into any exchange in a public thread. That's the point of it being public.

To make general comments on a topic, yes. Not to comment on a specific offer from one user to another.

🤣🤣🤣 That has made me laugh!

Yeah that’s really weird. The badge was about performing… not being good at it lol.

Listening to a child singing who sounds like a constipated puppy having its tail stood on is torture to be fair. Maybe The Recorder would have been a better choice or in my case, the triangle 😆.

Brownie badges were earned not just given away willy nilly.