Brownies incident stopped me singing, starting to see how messed up it was.

That's a whole other discussion topic. Does there come a point when we take responsibility for our own insecurities and have another go?

My grandfather never sang. He couldn't sing in tune and said that he was tone deaf. He was married to a musical woman, who played the piano, and he discouraged it. He was criticised in his schooldays, too, and wasn't allowed to sing during school assemblies. But what I don't know is whether he was someone who was incapable of singing in tune, or whether, given time and some teaching, he would have been able to. Apparently some people really are tone deaf, and can't learn to sing in tune.

I was once in a choir (an unauditioned choir) where one person sang out of tune, and it was awful. She appeared to have no idea that she wasn't singing in tune, and it really spoilt the choir for everyone else. Everyone was too polite to tell her that she wasn't singing in tune. She was in her twenties. Had everyone always been too kind to tell her, or did she know and not care?

You say in your opening post that: "I can't carry a tune in a bucket". I'm not saying that you would have been that person if you'd carried on singing. But I think that telling you that you weren't singing in tune was the right thing to do. It should have been done more sensitively, and by your brownie leader. A child who can't sing in tune shouldn't get to the stage of singing in public - it's not fair. As you were quite young, it's quite possible that you would have learned to sing in tune over time, though not guaranteed. Why not get some singing lessons now, and see how it goes?

I think the judges were put in a difficult position. They were asked to judge the children and to award a pass or fail. They were faced with a child who sang out of tune. I think that failing you was an understandable decision, and perhaps the right decision. If you want to blame someone, I would probably blame your brownie leader or your parents, who presumably knew that you couldn't sing in tune, even if you didn't know it yourself, and let you perform a song.

I'm so sorry they were cocks.

Tempus fugit though. Are they dead yet?

Then I certainly have more sympathy for you OP. But maybe put more context in the opening post next time.
Did your brownie leader discuss the outcome with you? Did she encourage you not to give up on singing?
Do you sing in tune now? That's something that can change over time.

About 3 programme changes ago, badges were indeed somewhat more prescriptive, and were supposed to be assessed "externally" (i.e. not by the unit's own leaders) - hence the Trefoil Guild ladies assessing and "failing" the OP. So it's quite possible that it was harder to get certain badges than it might be now. I'm not sure that was a good thing, and it certainly wouldn't be popular now.

But that system changed more than 20 years ago, as it wasn't really workable and disadvantaged girls in less well-off areas who might not have many available options for assessors. It's nearly all done "in house" now, with the leaders who know the girls best.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your time in Guiding, but don't blame it all on ND - we have many ND girls and leaders, diagnosed and not, so it clearly works for some!

I was curious about how it worked as it was possible to fail badges back in the day.

But then being undiagnosed AuDHD back when I was in brownies and guides meant that I didn’t have the ‘enriching’ experience you describe.

Well not at the time because it made no sense until you edited it.

I think you got the point didn't you?

There is no need to be so snippy when your post made no sense until you edited it,

Why do you keep asking the same questions, these have already been answered in detail in previous responses?

If you don't think effort is worth rewarding in any way, then I guess you are never going to get the reason that scouts/guides works for many, many kids.

My art teacher tore up one of my paintings in front of the class when I was 12. From that day on I knew I was useless at art and it wasn't worth trying. 53 years later I have taken up making things out of air dry clay and painting them purely for my own amusement. A friend of my husband was in the house a few days ago and asked if I had made a particular item, which I had. He said, you should sell them. I would happily pay £20 for that!!!!! Not going to happen because I am doing for me for fun but, it proves teachers don't know everything.

Educate yourself. Sorry.

Each of my girls achieve results!

Then why does it have awards?

What do you mean in your last para?

So do you expect your guides to do things to a standard independently or do you give out badges to those who aren’t very good at it just because you judge that they have ‘made the effort’? Because surely tweens/teens are savvy enough to know when they haven’t done something very well.

I am just trying to work out why you would reward perceived effort instead of actual results?

GG/scouting isn't a test.
You simply don't get the method or the work done in the scouts/GG. Sorry.

Of course I support, encourage, laugh and cry with them!

What did you expect? That I throw them for the wolves?

Actually I did get thrown in the swimming pool.

With driving, swimming etc, you are given guidance and then you are expected to do the actual work yourself. And you are expected to prove to be a certain standard before you get your licence or swimming badge or whatever. You don’t get help in the test.

So it isn’t really the same.

All my girls work hard at GG. All of them!
No one is given anything. It's my responsibility that we aim high and how to work things out - and we do. In many different ways the goals are reached and two girls' development and growth aren't the same to compare.

In doubt sign up to volunteer and see for yourself in a local group. You will be very welcome.

We have a waiting list in my group for every year grup. The adults have worked with the GG/scouting method for years. We take part in courses and our community every year to educate ourselves. We work hard to give our children and young people skills, leadership and faith in the future.

Of course they can have help if they need it. That's how they learn. Did you just get in a car and drive it? Or did you have help to learn how?

Do teachers teach kids at school by helping, by showing, by giving examples?
Or do they just say 'read a book' without helping the children to learn how?

Did you just get thrown in a swimming pool and have to swim? (to be fair, that's how my mum learnt to swim, although it put her off for life) Or did someone teach you how?

You really do seem to be looking to pick apart the system, rather than looking at how these activities can enrich the lives of small children.

And would they be expected to do it themselves? Only asking because another poster said ‘we build a new one’

The answer is there in the instructions, think of ways you could improve it. They either make changes or they make another one.

I can’t answer for all children in this age group but if my girls choose to do it it is because they have the drive and want it to work.